Target Center Renovation

[Wedgeguy]

There is a very tall obstacle to redoing the E block with TC, it is called the Grave Hotel. Unless you plan on buying up an expensive hotel property and tear it down it is in the middle of what you want to replace. The Hennepin Ave side of Block E and the 3-4 levels on the ground floor definately need to be reworked. But you are unfortunately looking at finding ways to work with the existing structure and possibly reorient the interior for better flow. Thinking you can just tear down all of Block E is a pipedream that will not happen. The Graves will not sell cheap!

[Didier]

I don't really understand the logic of spending $400 million to build a brand new sports arena over spending $100 million to upgrade an old one?

It's not like new NBA arenas are made of some alternate kind of concrete or something.

[BigIdeasGuy]

Wedgeguy you are right the biggest challenge to redeveloping Block E is the Graves 601 Hotel but with the parking lots next the Cowles Theater I think it would be possible for Graves to build a new hotel there while giving up his new location, now it would take a developer to step in and make it happen and take on a huge amount of risk but it could be possible.

And Didier the savings would come in tearing down and rebuilding the Target Center now at a ballpark cost of $400 million compared to renovating the Target Center now and replacing it later at a combined ballpark cost of over $600 million. But with the Target Center lease running through 2025 that's not a reality.

[Tom H.]

^^^ I understand where you're coming from, but your two ideas here are really off-base.

(1) Graves is just not going to tear down his hotel tower and build a new one next door - it just doesn't make sense economically. The market doesn't support it, meaning it would take huge government intervention to effect this Block E redevelopment you speak of.

(2) It might be true that we could spend $400M now to avoid spending $600M later, but you're just pulling those numbers out of thin air. The question is not 'Will it be cheaper to build a new arena now, or in 15 years?' - the real question is 'Can intermittent, cheaper renovations prevent the very necessity of re-building a new arena at some point in the future?' In any case, your argument of 'Let's build a new arena now, because they only get more expensive!' will logically lead to build a new arena every time it's due for maintenance or routine upgrades.

[BigIdeasGuy]

1. I agree that Graves isn't just going to tear down the 601 as well, it wouldn't make any economic sense for him at all, none. The only possible way that would happen is if a developer would take on an insane amount of risk by buying the 601 with the intent of tearing it down and redeveloping the entire block. It's not going to happen anytime soon but my original point was it would make too much sense to redevelop Block E while at the same time renovation/replacing the Target Center.

2. The $400M comes from looking at what other modern arenas cost to build then estimating what a comparable arena would cost. The $600M came from the $100M that is currently planned on going into the TC then adding in the cost of a new arena in 10, 15, 20 years which I guesstimated at $500M.

And while I see where you could logically come to the conclusion about on wanting to replace the building instead of doing routine upgrades or maintenance what they are doing to the Target Center goes WELL beyond either upgrades or maintenance. They are completely gutting and rebuilding the seating bowl, that is a massive renovation and that's why I brought it up but as I stated with the Wolves locked into a lease until 2025 they aren't going to replace the TC anytime soon.

[Didier]

What do other arenas have that the Target Center could not be upgraded to include?

[go4guy]

Didier. That is my question? What would a new arena have that an upgraded arena couldnt have? The only thing I can think of is more space. And that just isnt going to happen with a downtown arena. You would have to build out on an empty parking lot in the suburbs. I would much rather have it downtown where it is, and just updgrade it. I would much rather spend $100 million every 20 years to update it, then tear down and rebuild every 20-30 years.

[fehler]

What do other arenas have that the Target Center could not be upgraded to include?

A decent NBA team?

[Wedgeguy]

What do other arenas have that the Target Center could not be upgraded to include?

A decent NBA team?

I would agree with you there, at this point I do not believe that the Wolves even sell out a majority of their games so I don't see the need for an arena with larger seating capacity. Renovation will work at this time and place.

[go4guy]

TC holds 19,000 which is above average for NBA arenas. They would never need to expand seating. And you must not follow the NBA if you dont think the Wolves are a decent NBA team. I think I read that their top 3 players only played together for something like 17 minutes last year. Without injuries, the team would have made the playoffs last year. And they more than likely will this year. Not only that, but they are a fun team to watch.

[nordeast homer]

They wouldn't need to add seating capacity at all. They already have more seats than Xcel. The building has great bones, upgrade for now and maybe with a new Wolves lease in 2025 they can work with the team on some 'tennant improvements' at that point. It shouldn't be any different than any other commercial tennant agreement, typically things are upgraded when the lease is taken care of.
I'm still trying to figure out what the hangups are right now. Is it the city or the team that are holding things up? It seems to me that we have seen what they intend to upgrade; are they asking for more or are have materials and construction costs forced them to pare some things down to make the budget fit?

[Tyler]

Two main issues have delayed and agreement:
-- The city wants a cheaper renovation than the Wolves/AEG do.
-- The city wants a 50/50 private/public split. The Wolves and AEG want to pay less.

I think the renovation will address all of the issues with the interior. New concessions, restrooms, finishes, locker rooms, concourse widening, improved acoustics, etc.

The exterior is another question. The originally proposed renovation makes huge improvements to the 6th st frontage and decent improvements elsewhere. It still would not compare to a new building. But it also sounded like the city was not on board with the cost of the proposed exterior. So we may see only minimal changes...

[nordeast homer]

So what I'm understanding or trying to read between the lines is that the state set aside roughly $100 mill for this upgrade, the city found out the cost for the upgrades it originally wanted will be more than that so they want the team and AEG to pick up a larger chuck than they had originally agreed upon.
So in a sense we are going to get a perpetuation of the half-assing of Target Center. From the second they put a shovel in the ground on this building they knew it was inferior to what they wanted. But hey, it's got a green roof...yipee.

[John]

^^^It would be very unfortunate if they minimally alter the exterior as this is a major flaw with this arena. It has the same issue that City Center and Block E have with their fortress-like façades and introverted layout, which we all know have been urban design disasters for our city. All they have succeeded to do is make great spaces for drug dealers etc. to shield their activity over the years. I question whether going the cheapest route with this renovation is in the best interest of our city in the long term. So much better an investment to do it right in the first place.

[trkaiser]

So much better an investment to do it right in the first place.

Or in the second...

This is what I've feared all along - leaving the exterior largely as it is. It will leave the metro area (and our government) with a stadium to complain about, though. I think we need that.

[BigIdeasGuy]

The biggest problem with the Target Center is the lack of the "Premium" spaces for the Wolves to make money on. Examples would be the relative low number of suites and almost non existence of club spaces, to be honest it's the same problem the Dome has. Combine that with the fact that the seating bowl was built "upside-down" meaning there are more seats in the upper bowl than to the lower bowl I'm kinda of amazed that it lasted this long before it was getting renovated.

[Tom H.]

Are the seating problems (basically, the price distribution of the seats) fixable in a renovation?

[Tyler]

So what I'm understanding or trying to read between the lines is that the state set aside roughly $100 mill for this upgrade, the city found out the cost for the upgrades it originally wanted will be more than that so they want the team and AEG to pick up a larger chuck than they had originally agreed upon.
So in a sense we are going to get a perpetuation of the half-assing of Target Center. From the second they put a shovel in the ground on this building they knew it was inferior to what they wanted. But hey, it's got a green roof...yipee.

Kind of. The original estimation was $155 million. A more fleshed out number was apparently $135 million. During the city's review process, someone(s) decided parts of the renovation were superfluous and that there were ways to bring that number down additionally. The $100 million cost definitely includes changes/deductions to the plan. The re-skinning was one thing specifically mentioned.

[Didier]

Let's be clear. The arena isn't being renovated because it has a bad street presence. It is being renovated so it can be competitive, which primarily means improving the experience inside.

Everyone here would like to see an improved exterior, but that's not the top priority of the involved parties.

[at40man]

If the goal is competitiveness, then I would hope that the ridiculous proposal for a joint stadium authority is dropped entirely. Otherwise it reeks to high heaven of collusion, which can only hurt the Xcel.