Target Center Renovation

[John21]

It makes you wonder if the Timberwolves are either positioning themselves to move to St. Paul, or at the very least using that possibility as leverage for their share of the tab here. After all, with Xcel available it's not like the Timberwolves <ital>have</ital> to pony up for Target Center renovations.

Does anybody know if there is a reason why the Timberwolves would benefit from paying a lot of money to upgrade the Target Center rather than moving to an already state-of-the-art arena nine miles away?

Personally, even though it might not the most fiscally responsible setup, I like having arenas in both cities. For all of the Target Center's flaws, I think that part of downtown would take a huge hit if it lost the Target Center and all of the events that come with it. It's already hard enough to populate Block E right across the street.

The Wolves are just doing what every other sports team in America does and that's fleecing the taxpayers. I doubt they would ever consider moving to St Paul. I believe most of their season/corporate ticket holders are on the west side.

[writruth]

It still amazes me how long it takes to get anything of substance built or developed in Minneapolis. The Target Center renovation is a case in point. Moderate plans were announced more than two years ago to arrive at a "sensible solution" to drastically improve the exterior and interior design of Target Center.

In February 2011, all of the parties gathered for a news conference at Target Center. The Mayor was there, the Wolves owner was on hand, as were the President of The City Council, the manager of the Target Center and other state and local officials. Seemingly, a $155 million "practical" Minnesota consensus was at hand to transform the building while not breaking the bank.

A year ago, the funding source to spruce up Target Center was approved by The Legislature as part of the funding mechanism for the new football stadium. Since then, the price tag has apparently been cut from it's original $155 million to around $100 million. But still, the principals in the project can't even agree on a date for their next meeting at which they could discuss solutions to get started on the renovations.

It's time for The Mayor to lock the parties in a room and hammer out an agreement so work can begin. Fifteen months from now Target Field will play host to The MLB All Star Game. It would be a huge, lost opportunity for the front door of Target Field to be a barricaded construction zone, especially at the same time The Transit Interchange and The Central Line are coming on line. There's probably just enough time, if all parties can be convinced, to complete work on Target Center and put Minneapolis' best face forward for the world to see. Come on, let's get this item off the To Do list.

[Aville_37]

My feelings exactly, writruth. But the powers that be have no problem getting numerous "plans" and "studies" done. Actually implementing them and seeing physical results - that's another story. Too many helpers in the kitchen as they say, or something like. All for democratic process and having everyone's voice heard - but at some point one person has to take a stand. That's the problem with Minneapolis' "weak mayor"/strong council system.

[John]

Great comments Writruth and Aville. One thing Writruth mentions that concerns me is the cut in the budget for renovating Target Center from 155 to 100 million dollars. That could have a really negative impact on the quality of this project. I think its risky and unwise to go on the cheap. This project really needs to be done right so the renovation and design is enduring for several decades. Its' a better investment in the long term.

[Didier]

The issue of the two arenas competing against each other has been around for a long time now; a centralized stadium authority would probably be more efficient than our current model where different entities control all of our major venues.

I am curious if somebody knows more about the Timberwolves' lease situation, though, because the more I think about it, with a new Xcel Energy Center nine miles down the road it seems like the team has all of the leverage. Why should/would the Timberwolves pay $50 million or whatever to update the Target Center when they could simply move to St. Paul?

There is an obvious reason why the city wants to keep the Timberwolves, but does anybody know why the team would specifically want to stay in Minneapolis as opposed to St. Paul?

[mullen]

they have a lease at least until 2025. the team doesn't have all the leverage.

do you really think the city would just let the timberwolves jump ship? are you from st paul? just curious......

the city was stuck with target center and it's issues back in 94. another example of the state putting the city on the hook financially for a statewide amenity. the timberwolves were moving to new orleans until the nba and glen taylor stepped in. the city and the timberwolves are tied to each other. without the pro basketball tenant the arena becomes dark many more days of the year and the bars and restaurants of the warehouse district/henn ave will suffer. taxes generated from these businesses will suffer. target center is there and isn't going anywhere, hate to break it to you.

it is no great surprise this target center renovation is being bogged down. the city has never embraced it's responsibility for owning an arena. and really, why should they? it was basically dumped in it's lap by the state back then. it's not exactly government's job to own sports venues. but that's the world of pro sports today. target center and it's issues are not popular and city leaders hate being seen as spending time and public money on it. the vikings stadium/target center vote was the most contentious ever for the council.

we ended up with two arenas because we need two of everything in this metro to appease our parochial interests.

there has always been this neigbhorhoods vs downtown debate in minneapolis. and yes, part of this is the weak mayor/strong council form of government. but every time it comes to a public vote, citizen have rebuffed proposals to change to a strong mayor system.

things aren't all milk and honey over at the xcel center and with the wild owner. but i'll leave that subject for now.

[Didier]

I love the St. Paul barb. What is that?

I was simply asking whether there is any reason the Timberwolves *have* to invest in upgrading Target Center as opposed to simply jumping ship to the already upgraded Xcel Energy Center. You answered my question by confirming they are tied to Minneapolis until 2025.

Of course the city would never want to lose the Timberwolves at this point, and I said earlier that I like having two arenas and hope the Timberwolves stay in Minneapolis and that ultimately both Xcel and Target Center are viable.


That said, I'm also curious to know more about the lack of milk and honey in St. Paul. The Xcel Energy Center is widely recognized as one of the nation's top facilities of its kind — per Wikipedia: "In 2004, it was named by ESPN as the best overall sports venue in the U.S.," so objectively speaking there is no question as to what is a higher-quality facility in 2013, Xcel or Target Center. If you're referring to the Exel Energy Center/Wild asking for more debt to be forgiven in order to remain competitive with the new public subsidy to Target Center, that is mis-characterizing the situation. The debt forgiveness is directly related to the parochial, two-city system you mention, as opposed to some flaw with the arena. But perhaps you're referring to something else?

[writruth]

Just finished watching Game 7 of the NBA Finals and it made me think, when will renovations begin on Target Center? The designs have been gathering dust for two years already and it's been more than a year since the legislature approved public funding as part of the football stadium deal. Now, it should just be a matter of how much money The Wolves ownership is still willing to contribute to round out the construction costs.

Aside from the Lynx 2011 Championship, we have to go back to the 1991 Twins World Series Championship, since we've hosted a national championship. We are way overdue. Next summer Target Field hosts the MLB All Star Game. What a wasted opportunity it will be if we can't get the adjacent Target Center renovation completed in time for our place in the national spotlight. Get it together team and city leaders and let's get the work done.

[mullen]

it's the oddest thing i agree. the team and city both continue to mumble about being close and "it will eventually happen". probably some final details about who pays for what and responsibilties. but yea, this has really dragged on.

i read the red wings and city of detroit have a deal for a new arena there.

[mister.shoes]

If you're willing to submit yourself to Sid Hartman, he has a bit on Target Center in his column today about the Target Field sales tax.

Target Center delayed

Ted Johnson, senior vice president of marketing and communications for the Timberwolves, is optimistic that the needed remodeling of Target Center can begin soon with money provided by the city of Minneapolis, AEG (the firm that operates the arena), and the team.

“It’s actually in the lawyers’ hands, where we can’t agree on a little thing here or a little thing there,” Johnson said. “But we should get it done soon.”

[mattaudio]

Oh, and I figured it was delayed because they were routing the money to property tax relief instead.... :-p

[MotorCity2TwinCities]

it's the oddest thing i agree. the team and city both continue to mumble about being close and "it will eventually happen". probably some final details about who pays for what and responsibilties. but yea, this has really dragged on.

i read the red wings and city of detroit have a deal for a new arena there.

A new home for the Red Wings is LONG overdue and, if all goes to plan, the new arena and "entertainment district" will, at the very least, successfully connect Downtown Detroit and Midtown Detroit, which have been separated for years and years by vacant lots and crumbling buildings. While I remain optimistic about the new arena itself, there are so many things about the planned entertainment district that could turn out terribly. Mike Illitch, the Wings and Tigers owner, doesn't mind putting blocks of surface parking lots in front of his stadiums and offices right along the busiest corridor in the city (See Comerica Park). Off-topic, I know, but I couldn't help but chime in. Side note - www.detroityes.com is a great forum to check out if you enjoy people arguing constantly, which is sometimes funny to read. The negativity and anger spewed on that board is wild.

[mplsjaromir]

Are Pistons going to decamp from Auburn Hills to join the Red Wings?

[MotorCity2TwinCities]

Are Pistons going to decamp from Auburn Hills to join the Red Wings?

That's been everyone's hope for a while, but it doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon. Illitch was poised to purchase the Pistons a few years ago when they were for sale after Bill Davidson died but decided against doing so after finding out that they were grossly overvalued IIRC. It's too bad because he would have put them in the same venue as the Wings, finally bringing them back to Detroit. Tom Gores, a billionaire who made his money through his private-equity firm, ended up buying the Pistons and spent something like $15m on renovations a few years back and has indicated that he has no plans to relocate them to Detroit any time soon. Although it's one of the oldest NBA arenas, the Palace is actually still pretty impressive due to the renovations. While it is still nice, it's in the burbs, 45 minutes from Detroit, there is absolutely nothing to do before/after the game, etc. - it's awful. I would imagine that Illitch will have the new Wings' arena designed to accommodate an NBA team so that the Pistons could play there if and when Gores decides to move them downtown. I believe the Pistons had the lowest attendance rate last season so hopefully a few more seasons with terrible attendance, coupled with the new Wings arena being built and current so-called/hopeful/grain of salt "revitalization" of Detroit will convince him that the Detroit Pistons belong in Detroit.

[mplsjaromir]

The first baseball, basketball and football games I attended were at Tiger Stadium, The Palace of Auburn Hills and the Silverdome respectively. I was born in the area but moved away at a young age. I been back twice in my adult years, still a nicer place than most in the country.

[MotorCity2TwinCities]

Yes, the suburbs are especially nice. Oakland County is one of the wealthiest counties in the country yet borders the most insolvent city in the county. I believe it is also the most racially segregated area in the country as well, with Oakland County being overwhelmingly white and Detroit being comprised of something like 90% African American. Oh, and the suburbs and city fight about everything and never work together - it's quite the circus. Getting back on topic, if these renovations were to start today, is there even a chance that they would be finished in time for the All-Star Game? How extensive is this renovation supposed to be? I have seen a few renderings but nothing much other than that.

[David Greene]

I am so glad I got to see a game at Tiger Stadium before they tore it down. What a great place that was.

The Detroit metro area is very segregated as are we here in the Twin Cities. I believe we basically jockey back and forth for #1 and #2.

[gobezlij]

The Detroit metro area is very segregated as are we here in the Twin Cities. I believe we basically jockey back and forth for #1 and #2.

Waaaaaay off the Target Center topic, but the Twin Cities is not nearly as segregated as Detroit. In this study based on 2010 Census data (http://www.s4.brown.edu/us2010/Data/Report/report2.pdf) Detroit is indeed the most segregated metro between blacks and whites. However, the Twin Cities comes in at #40 (see pages 6-7). Other indicators in the report show that the Twin Cities persistently ranks below many other metro areas in the level of segregation.

[David Greene]

Thanks for the numbers. I think I confused segregation with disparities. We certainly have some of the worst racial disparities in the country.

[MotorCity2TwinCities]

Well back on topic - does anyone know if the Target Center renovation will increase/decrease seating capacity or add more luxury suites?