Target Center Renovation

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MNdible
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby MNdible » October 13th, 2015, 10:45 am

The problem with this project, from day one, is that you've got three different owners (the city, the T-wolves, and AEG), each with different priorities and different budget realities. It's not really fair to blame any one of them -- it's the reality of the situation.

VikingFaninMaryland
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » October 13th, 2015, 11:38 am

I think they could play in the U.S. Bank Stadium and frame it as a dry run/dress rehearsal for the Final Four. That way, they could even share in the costs associated with configuration.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby MNdible » October 13th, 2015, 11:59 am

I can't imagine the Lynx wanting to play at USBank, beyond maybe a single novelty game. 10,000 people in a 70,000 seat stadium would be absolutely deadly.

Playing at Williams would seem to be the clear answer. I don't see the T-Wolves wanting to play at Xcel even if it were an option, as they are the competition.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby EOst » October 13th, 2015, 12:50 pm

acs wrote:From what we've been seeing in the strib, it's not the T-wolves who are holding this up, they still hoped to finish by next fall.

http://www.startribune.com/target-cente ... 332407522/

Yet the city council still hasn't signed off on a final price, despite the fact that they have had the proposal (including the cost increase) up to them from subcommittee since the end of March.
You're right, I'm certain that the City Council is just sitting on a ready-to-go agreement with their thumbs up their asses, and there is nothing else going on. Very good inference!

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby minneboom » November 4th, 2015, 11:12 pm

With the success of Target Field, and hopefully US Bank Stadium and Minnesota United Stadium, I wonder if this renovation should be abandoned in favor of a new arena? Right now the Twin Cities are home to some of the best stadiums and arenas in the country and it would be great to add the Timberwolves arena to this list. Perhaps it could even lead to the Twin Cities hosting the olympics someday....

The current location for Target Center is not great, it feels smashed up against Target Field and the circulation around the arena is terrible. It might be better for the city and the Timberwolves to really look at all the options and select the ideal situation, rather than trying to force something at the existing site. Some of the alternative sites for the MInnesota United Stadium, such as the Farmers Market Site, could be great candidates for a new Timberwolves Arena and could help continue development along the Green Line and North Minneapolis. Then the existing Target Center can be demolished and the lot can be used for something better, maybe even some public green space outside Target Field.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby Didier » November 5th, 2015, 6:49 am

The next U.S. Olympics will be in Los Angeles, so that's not a legitimate reason to build a new arena.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby trigonalmayhem » November 5th, 2015, 7:59 am

No. No no no, minneboom, you did NOT just suggest yet another stadium. Is there no limit to the pocket picking of local tax money that sports fans expect? Especially after they're dumping all this money into it now.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby Silophant » November 5th, 2015, 8:03 am

Right, because completing the full renovation and then replacing it anyway is what he suggested.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby Wedgeguy » November 5th, 2015, 8:52 am

We seem to be forgetting here that this arena has been going thru some updates the last few years already. There has improvements to the seating bowl, some acoustics upgrades, and upgrade to some of the concessions areas. Money has been invested already in the arena. Those were minor improvements while we have been dicking around trying to get the full blown renovation packaged, financed, and bid on. Now come the big improvements, moving the main entrance, major upgrades to the concourses, upgrade the suites, and new I hope state of the art scoreboards. We can hope that the exterior of the arena will be much more presentable to visitors as they arrive at the arena. The arena's functionally is fine, it has just gotten old and worn. With the Timberwolves offices out of the building, those areas can be used for better used for the visitors experience. Better use of their existing space is a much smarter way to go. When it is finished being renovated, it will be a great arena.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby minneboom » November 5th, 2015, 11:28 am

Hear me out.

Investments in high quality, well designed buildings have so far been great for the Twin Cities. The new Guthrie Theater helped promote development in the Mill City District, Target field has helped the North Loop, US Bank Stadium is helping encourage improvements to Downtown East, CHS Field and Lowertown are doing great together.

The millions of dollars that are being invested in the Target Center could have a more positive effect for the city if a new arena was built at a different site. The money for this renovation could be saved and used to plan for a new arena in a better location once the lease runs out. Then the city of Minneapolis could sell the property and help design a new development on this property through a request for proposals.

This is a big project that does not come around often. We should make sure we do it right. The Barclays Center in New York is awesome and Minneapolis could have something similar.

Addtionally, I think council member Andrew Johnson makes some good points.

http://andrewjohnsonmpls.tumblr.com/

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby amiller92 » November 5th, 2015, 11:42 am

I'm curious why your list of stadia that correlate with redevelopment didn't include Target Center, which totally hipsters (i.e. was into it way before) Target Field on the start of the warehouse district/north loop rebirth?

Anyway, I think proximity to Target Field is a plus not a minus and don't think we need to put yet more money in a new stadium.

As for the councilman, he doesn't sound like he'd agree with you at all. Your proposal would certainly require a referendum (or action by the legislature) and would require a lot more money.

ETA: Oh, and proximity to Target Field seems like a big plus rather than a minus, in that they can share parking.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby FISHMANPET » November 5th, 2015, 11:49 am

Andrew Johnson makes some great points about not throwing money at stadiums, I think his view is literally the opposite of what you think it is on this issue.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby mister.shoes » November 5th, 2015, 11:51 am

What's so bad about the location again? While it takes up [slightly more than] a whole city block, the neighboring streets all maintain circulation and it makes for a lively space in the liveliest part of downtown. Target Field doesn't need a plaza at 1st Ave. It already has a plaza over the top of 394. Additionally, the well-designed access ramps to TF do a pretty darn good job of making sure that TC isn't a barrier at all. I can't see any reason to build a new indoor arena anywhere else in the city of MPLS. Any site bigger than the current one is going to end up with sprawling plazas that take away from the neighborhood. Any site the same size is going to be in the CBD anyway.

The best part about TC and TF is that event attendees spill onto the streets and into the bars and restaurants around them. If either or both of those facilities had more breathing room, that doesn't happen. I'd much rather we spend $100MM or whatever sprucing up TC than 5x that tearing it down and building anew.
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby minneboom » November 5th, 2015, 12:28 pm

Looking into the numbers sited in Andrew Johnson post, it looks like we are putting in roughly $125 million dollars into this renovation. Additionally, the city pays $4m-$5m/yr for 10 yr to pay off the existing debt, $1.5m/yr to AEG , and $5m/yr for yearly maintenance, while only making $1m/yr in ticket tax revenue, $3-4m/yr in parking revenue, $1.35m/yr rent paid. That is quite a bit of upfront money and yearly expenses that could be put into a much better arena that could really benefit an area of the Twin Cities.



In late 2013, the outgoing Council voted to put $49 million (matched by another $50 million in private funding) into renovating the Target Center. The predominant feeling was that the 1990′s now-City-owned facility was “getting old” and that it made more sense to renovate it to make the facility more modern/competitive than to “let it fall apart” until the Timberwolves/Lynx run out their contract to play there until 2025, at which point the City would likely face pressure to tear it down and build a new arena at a much greater cost than a renovation. In this regard, the idea of renovating the Target Center was sold as the “frugal choice.”

Now $99 million to renovate is “not enough”…

Fast-forward to today. Construction prices in Minneapolis are third-highest in the nation (yes, you read that right… we’re only less expensive than Chicago and NYC), in good part due to the stadium construction which requires a massive amount of labor and materials, thus driving demand up, and in turn, prices. Because of these higher construction prices, the original budget for the Target Center renovation will no longer suffice, and thus they “need” another $24.5 million to build what was originally planned for. More specifically, the additional funding is needed mostly for the exterior portion of the building.

From Andrew Johnson's post.

$4m-$5m/yr for approximately ten more years to pay off our $45m existing debt for the purchase of the Target Center
$1.5m/yr paid to AEG to operate the facility (this is for booking events/concerts… while we have a “revenue sharing” plan with them, no real revenue has ever been brought in from the average of 25 concerts a year)
$1.35m/yr paid to the City by the Timberwolves/Lynx to rent the facility
$5m/yr on average for maintenance and long-term capital improvements
$49m in bonding coming from the City under the original package passed in 2013, which extended the contracts for the Timberwolves/Lynx and AEG from 2025-2032
$24.5m in additional bonding coming from the City under this now approved funding, which results in the contracts for the Timberwolves/Lynx and AEG being extended three more years, to 2035
$3-4m/yr in parking revenue associated with the Target Center
$1m/yr in ticket tax revenue from Target Center events
$178 million (in 2015 dollars) to build the Xcel Energy Center, the primary competition for the Target Center

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby MN Fats » November 5th, 2015, 1:00 pm

minneboom wrote: This is a big project that does not come around often. We should make sure we do it right. The Barclays Center in New York is awesome and Minneapolis could have something similar.
Barclays Center cost about the same as US Bank Stadium to build (Over $1 billion)

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby amiller92 » November 5th, 2015, 1:15 pm

minneboom wrote:Looking into the numbers sited in Andrew Johnson post, it looks like we are putting in roughly $125 million dollars into this renovation. Additionally, the city pays $4m-$5m/yr for 10 yr to pay off the existing debt, $1.5m/yr to AEG , and $5m/yr for yearly maintenance, while only making $1m/yr in ticket tax revenue, $3-4m/yr in parking revenue, $1.35m/yr rent paid. That is quite a bit of upfront money and yearly expenses that could be put into a much better arena that could really benefit an area of the Twin Cities.
But except for the first one, those numbers stay about the same for a new arena. And the first one is a lot bigger.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby Wedgeguy » November 5th, 2015, 1:41 pm

Minneboom, the major thing that you are leaving out of all of this is LOCATION,LOCATION,LOCATION. The Timberwolves now have their offices and practice facilities right across the street in brand new facilities. I don't think they want to move to another part of the city when what they have for a location is a GEM for them. Where are you going to build an arena that has access to both the green and blue lines, as well as possible extension to the SW and NW? You have the Warehouse station a block away! Like it has already been brought up, Target Center was one of the catalyst to the booming entertainment district on 1st and Hennepin Avenues. Why are we going to take away business from an established area that has now extended into the NL and the DT core. Target Center takes care of the fall and winter months, Target Field takes care of the spring and summer months. The ABC ramps are there already, the bus lines are there already, the LRT is right there. We really don't need to spread out our entertainment areas any further than they are. Because of the limited nature of the sports season, you want to have something that will continually draw people. I sure don't know any other area in MPLS where that would be the case. Target Center is in the PRIME spot for entertainment. We have invested lots of money to get it to where it is, Don't understand wanting to take those dollars away when there is no reason to, other than the FRESH SHINY ARENA SYNDROME.

You have not given us an alternative site for the arena and why it would be such a good thing over what we already have built up and paid for. I've listed reasons why not, I'll listen to your concrete reasons to where and why we should build new elsewhere. Sorry tearing down/rebuilding, TC is not an option as you would have how many season affected for both the Timberwolves and the Lynx. That 1$29 M would be more like half a Billion plus once you get tear down cost and rebuilding costs. Not to meant the lose of business for the bars,restaurants, stores for those two seasons that it would take to get it replaced. That is a lot of dollars lost and a lot of businesses hurt. All we have to do is look at the players strike when there was no basketball for nearly a season. Businesses were hurt financially.

As far as increased cost to build, once the US Bank stadium is done (2016) there will be more labor available to do the renovation. That is why I think they are doing the major part of the renovation in late 2016-17, when there will be less competition for labor. A lot of the other projects will be wrapping up in 2016 also, like the Armory.

contrast
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby contrast » November 5th, 2015, 9:05 pm

Minneboom- in addition to what Wedgeguy et al posted, the city would still be paying debt service on a demolished building- that is a terrible idea.

The current location is very difficult to beat- walking distance to the core for mid week evening games and First Avenue restaurants evolved as they have because of Target Center. Very symbiotic relationship with its surroundings.

But I do like your positive brainstorming- just not your proposal.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby minneboom » November 6th, 2015, 12:04 am

My first suggestion for a site would be the parcel of land that Minnesota United was looking at. This is still located within walking distance of both light rail lines. Additionally, it is relatively close to the existing Timberwolves practice facilities and offices. It would become the premier event site in the Twin Cities and help Minneapolis compete against the Xcel Energy Center, and even other sites nationally.

Image

This would help round out the development in the North Loop and promote additional development in North Minneapolis, such as like the Linden Yards project and improvements to the farmers market.

Image

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As for the existing site. Target Field, First Ave, Nicollet Mall, Guthrie Theater and the North Loop provide plenty of business for the neighboring restaurants and bars. In addition there will soon be the US Bank Stadium and plenty of other developments, such as Downtown East and the MInneapolis Armory. The existing building would be demolished, but it could be turned into an amazing development opportunity that the city could help direct. Maybe it remains an entertainment venue, or residential development, or a park, the city and citizens would have the power to help shape that outcome since Minneapolis owns the property. I certainly think the city would be able to sell that lot for quite a bit of money given its prime location.

I guess the main question is whether is it worth $70 million of public money and $50 of private money to renovate an older facility that Minneapolis then needs to maintain. The other option is use this land for a different purpose and donate more money to help finance a private stadium elsewhere, that is no longer the responsibility of the city.

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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby MNdible » November 6th, 2015, 10:15 am

Why are we even entertaining this?

It seems to be premised on the idea that the Timberwolves would like to sink a lot of their own money into building a new facility in a worse location. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that's the case. And the thought that the same city that kicked the soccer stadium over to St. Paul on principle would suddenly want to invest huge cash into a new arena... it's just not going to happen.


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