Target Field Station (the Hotel) & Target Field Station (the Station)

[Chef]

Nobody lives around here except for rich condo owners who are going to be driving anyway.

Although I have agreed in previous posts that the cost/benefit of this project makes me raise an eyebrow, the way you put it makes you sound like an ass. Not sure what you consider rich, but if you mean enough income to pay the taxes that will ultimately fund this project, then yes, rich. Between two of us we own one car (hey, it's not New York City) but we use light rail, walking, or car2go 90% of the time. I'm sure you can find a few of the 5000 nobodies who live within half a mile that fit your stereotype, but even for a stereotype it's fairly ignorant. Too bad because you dilute a reasonable argument.

From the perspective of someone (me) who has spent 20+ years honing his craft, manages a business, still only lives in a 1Br apartment, and will probably be eating cat food upon retirement, the people living in those condos are rich. I pay my cooks $8 to $10 an hour, they all went to cooking school and have huge debts. 36% of people between the ages of 18 and 31 live with their parents and that describes all of my employees, so perhaps my perspective of wealth is different than some other people.

There are some things happening in our society. The working class is living lives of blood and pain. This is a new thing. Maybe some of you don't feel it the way the rest of us do.

/threadjack

[mulad]

Do people really think that the original Target Field design was sufficient, though? It would just barely be possible to handle two different lines with the configuration they had.

My main complaints about the project are that they went with simple I-beam construction for the bridge rather than a more graceful box girder, and that they included as much parking as they did (perhaps justifiable for the police presence, but I'm not sure).

[David Greene]

Do people really think that the original Target Field design was sufficient, though?

No, of course not. But the current project is obviously not designed for transportation purposes. It's doesn't even accommodate buses, much less bicycles or any other mode other than rail. Despite the original name, this is not the Minneapolis Intermodal Station. We can agree something is needed without agreeing that Target Field Station is what is needed.

This is about ensuring that Minneapolis is the center of rail transit in Minnesota. This is an ego-fueled project meant to pull NLX and high-speed rail into Minneapolis. It's completely stupid that we put a couple hundred million into Union Depot, making it very nice for rail, buses, bikes and peds with plenty of capacity for future expansion and then went and built a second "hub" that doesn't even come close to doing the same.

[bubzki2]

I'm glad they're building this, but good points have been made in terms of its lackluster transit added value. I think of it as a second Target Plaza, which isn't the worst thing, I guess.

[orangevening]

Do people really think that the original Target Field design was sufficient, though?

No, of course not. But the current project is obviously not designed for transportation purposes. It's doesn't even accommodate buses, much less bicycles or any other mode other than rail. Despite the original name, this is not the Minneapolis Intermodal Station. We can agree something is needed without agreeing that Target Field Station is what is needed.

This is about ensuring that Minneapolis is the center of rail transit in Minnesota. This is an ego-fueled project meant to pull NLX and high-speed rail into Minneapolis. It's completely stupid that we put a couple hundred million into Union Depot, making it very nice for rail, buses, bikes and peds with plenty of capacity for future expansion and then went and built a second "hub" that doesn't even come close to doing the same.

Well put. Really hope part of the deal is to get some wayfinding.signs for the buses. More I think about it the more user bus riders get the shaft here. I think some of point of this project is make the back (west) side of the ballpark less of a no-man's-land and make it more attractive for development.

[woofner]

Do people really think that the original Target Field design was sufficient, though? It would just barely be possible to handle two different lines with the configuration they had.

The platforms themselves were certainly sufficient. At post-game, you had the ability to run one eastbound train per platform, which is plenty to handle the stadium crush loads. There is plenty of room there for two lines of waiting riders, especially if you use the 5th St roadway as waiting space. (It was stupid, though, to not build the 5th St viaduct at a grade to allow direct boarding of trains.)

All you really have to do to make it work is to hold off on interlining after games. So you'd require a transfer between the blue and green lines and their respective extensions for a half an hour or so on game days. Not the end of the world, especially considering you'd probably give the interliners a faster ride by putting them on a shuttle between Van White or Royalston and 5th & Nicollet.

In other words, this could have been an organization solution rather than a concrete one.

[FISHMANPET]

Sounds like this would have been a good time to apply the German mantra of Organization before electronics before concrete but we love concrete in this country so we always go straight to it.

[xandrex]

This seems more like a civic vanity project rather than something that will benefit a large number of people ... Nobody lives around here except for rich condo owners who are going to be driving anyway

It seems to be a silly argument to say this is a bad project because rich people in condos will use it. I know many people who live in the neighborhood who aren't a two-income household--but are making solidly middle-class incomes--who are walking and biking and, yes, using transit in this neighborhood. Certainly it is lacking in many ways (not incorporating buses, for instance). But the North Loop having a fancy station that will likely encourage people into the area (of course assuming the retail portion pans out) and perhaps keep transit on their minds more often can't be an entirely bad thing.

The back of the ballpark, garbage burner, 394, and Ramp C all sort of make the North Loop feel disconnected from downtown. A development like this--as flawed as it may be--helps make downtown feel a little closer.

[FISHMANPET]

I know we shouldn't let good be the enemy of the great, but can we at least let bad be the enemy of the good? Yeah it could be worse in a million different ways, but it could pretty easily be much better. We'll accept any "improvement" no matter how terrible it is, because we get so little in general.

[mulad]

How about this: Should there be a flyover here anyway, in order to connect SWLRT & Bottineau? What's the difference in cost between building a bare flyover vs. the expanded station? Was that worthwhile?

[woofner]

I don't believe the flyover is necessary for the transit projects, no. Given the minimal amount of traffic, the transit lines can be given priority at the one or two signals needed to access the interior of the blocks. The tracks needed to be reconfigured to accommodate the development, but from what I can tell the flyover itself is pure vanity. My [mis]understanding is the 7th St crossing is planned to be at grade, and that will cause more delay to the transit lines than the signals to access the garbage burner blocks.

[Edit: I just looked into it, and it looks like the 7th St crossing will in fact be above grade in a viaduct that curves around, appears to pass over 5th Ave N and join grade at Royalston. You can see that in slide 67 of the 8/7 CMC meeting presentation here:

http://metrocouncil.org/getdoc/89eda23d ... ation.aspx

I still don't think it would impact operations to have at-grade crossings for the access points to the HERC block though. Interestingly, while this station area plan shows a better alignment for the Royalston-area streets:

http://www.southwesttransitway.org/tech ... rials.html

You'll note this is not depicted on the PE drawing in the CMC presentation. Presumably they are not assuming reconstruction of the Olson/7th intersection for the SWLRT project, which the station-area plan would require. So contact your councilmember if you think the Royalston area sucks.]

[mattaudio]

This also brings up the opportunity to re-imagine the complex of 7th St, 6th Ave, Olson, Royalston / Oak Lake, etc. The streets could be reconfigured or calmed in a way that makes it hospitable for an extension of North Loop development.

A rough idea I had is to create a two-way underpass connecting 7th St viaduct to the east and Olson Hwy/I94 diamond to the west. This could move most Olson Hwy / Downtown traffic out of the pedestrian realm and allow for the grid to be calmed. It would allow for Bottineau/Southwest lines to move through the area at grade. I'll work on a map.

[mister.shoes]

Grand Opening, May 17th

[twincitizen]

Fresh details released on Twins / United Properties enhancements, video board, signage, etc.

http://www.journalmpls.com/news-feed/la ... -amenities

And this:

Target Field Station will open Saturday, May 17. That day the Twins play the Mariners at 6:10 p.m. There will be speeches and an opening ceremony in the morning, followed by festivities all day leading up to the game.

Announcements regarding three additional art installations at the station and retail shops next to the transit plaza are expected to be made soon.

I totally want to go to the game that day!

[Nick]

P1260023 by UrbanMSP, on Flickr


P1260028 by UrbanMSP, on Flickr

[mamundsen]

Updated rendering and information about some of the additions... http://www.journalmpls.com/news-feed/la ... -amenities

I feel like having the giant Target Field Station sign on the HERC could be confusing. I thought this was NOT TFS and it was the Interchange!?!?

EDIT: sorry. Didn't see the post above Nick's pictures...

[at40man]

Do people really think that the original Target Field design was sufficient, though?

No, of course not. But the current project is obviously not designed for transportation purposes. It's doesn't even accommodate buses, much less bicycles or any other mode other than rail. Despite the original name, this is not the Minneapolis Intermodal Station. We can agree something is needed without agreeing that Target Field Station is what is needed.

This is about ensuring that Minneapolis is the center of rail transit in Minnesota. This is an ego-fueled project meant to pull NLX and high-speed rail into Minneapolis. It's completely stupid that we put a couple hundred million into Union Depot, making it very nice for rail, buses, bikes and peds with plenty of capacity for future expansion and then went and built a second "hub" that doesn't even come close to doing the same.

BINGO. And the best it will ever be for rail is a "stub" station.

To top it off, the renovation of Union Depot came under a lot of fire for being "wasteful" and the only way to turn that perception around with the anti-transit crowd is to make it the true hub of intermodal transit in the Twin Cities, or else we threaten the viability of future rail projects.

I already picture the comments... "We spent $250 million on a train station that sits empty, and then don't connect trains to it?!" And for once, I may actually agree with them... though for entirely different reasons.

[mamundsen]

This intercity rail discussion between Union Depot and Target Field Station seems to be getting farther away from the actual topic of TFS... Or is it just me?

[mulad]

I've found the downtown-to-downtown study thread I created back in 2012...

https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=280

[Jfuss]

From the Ballpark Authority January 2014 meeting...

The Twins are requesting authorization to install a message center/ribbon board above the Northstar Vertical Circulation Building (VCB), as depicted in the attached concept rendering. The new sign will be used in the same fashion as the ribbon board above the ballpark’s main ticket office at Gate 29, to promote upcoming games and events at Target Field and Target Field Station, and will not be utilized as a billboard for product advertisements.

Regarding the public art projects at Target Field Station, design for the Granite Wall project is complete and the artist is ready to construct as soon as the wall is built and installed on the site. A new plan for the Cistern project is underway. The original artist withdrew and Hennepin County Environmental Services has offered to create an educational piece on sustainability at this site. Zoran’s bench project has been moved from the top of the cascade stairs at Target Field Station to the 5th Street entrance area.