Target Field Station (the Hotel) & Target Field Station (the Station)

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
mattaudio
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby mattaudio » April 15th, 2014, 4:02 pm

Actually, it will be better than the alternative. Eastbound Blue Line traffic does not have to cross westbound Green Line traffic. LRVs won't have to use that double crossover built into the new station unless they're going to/from the storage tail tracks.

In this sense, it will be much more efficient than the eastern interlocking installed between 11th Ave S and 35W for the Central Corridor. And the reason why I suggested a similar track setup for Midtown/Blue Line at Lake St (above).

David Greene
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby David Greene » April 15th, 2014, 4:20 pm

talindsay wrote:eah, sorry that's what I thought at first but that's certainly not the case because the tail track turns back way past Royalston, parallel to 7th, heading straight back toward the trench rail tracks.
Gotcha. I misunderstood what you were talking about. I believe that is indeed a staging area for vehicles to handle ballgame crowds.

mulad
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby mulad » April 17th, 2014, 8:01 pm

Sooo.... twincitizen posted this image from the swlrtcommunityworks.org website over on the SWLRT thread:

Image
swlrt-royalston-station-area-improvements by Mulad, on Flickr

...and I had to go and start talking about having an area reserved for Target Field station expansion. Most of that plan looks great, but I really, really, really think there should be some extra space reserved southwest of Target Field for some extra platforms. I can't say for sure if we'd really need the space, but even just having one platform and two tracks over here would probably be beneficial.

MnDOT's state rail plan has a Mankato (perhaps eventually to Worthington and Sioux City) service slated for sometime before 2030, which really should go up the Dan Patch corridor to reach Minneapolis before heading to SPUD. The only other existing route would have it continue up the Minnesota/Mississippi river to SPUD, requiring most Twin Cities-bound passengers to double back (alternatively, there was a crossing at Chaska until recently which could be rebuilt and continue to Minneapolis along the SWLRT Trail corridor -- but of course stuff has been put in the way a bit). There are also plans beyond 2030 for a Willmar/Sioux Falls service, and a service to Albert Lea and points south (Des Moines, maybe Omaha). The Dan Patch corridor could also work for the Zip Rail line to Rochester in some form (existing concepts get darn close to Northfield as it is). And there may be Twin Cities-area "commuter" services too, though I haven't heard of any active studies to that effect.

The area northeast of Target Field has been locked in with the construction of the Dock Street Flats -- I believe the plan is to have 2 platforms, with 4 active tracks. 2 of those tracks will stub tracks that can't run through, and the two existing tracks combine to a single track as they pass under the stadium. There is the other freight track on the northwest side of the existing station, but I'm not very optimistic that could ever have a platform on it. Unless we tear down Target Field (which, admittedly, is a decent possibility if we're talking about 20/40/60-year time horizons), there isn't any way to add more track than that on the northeast side.

Northstar, NLX, Zip Rail, and Amtrak+Chicago HSR alone will probably put us around 40-50 round trips per day, which is relatively tight considering some of those trains will have to sit in Minneapolis for a while as they get cleaned and checked out for their return runs, and decent numbers of passengers will have luggage with them. If the other routes get added and maybe Red Rock gets built as a commuter service, we could be talking 90 round-trips per day. If there was a real resurgence of interest, and we went to more European levels of service where most lines have hourly service or better, we may be talking upwards of 160 round-trips per day, with significantly higher numbers of actual train movements. Something coming or going every 5 minutes or less at peak times.

Now, with proper scheduling, a lot can be achieved with those two planned platforms on the northeast side, but what would happen if the FRA or FTA suddenly decides that rail passengers need to go through airline-style security, for instance? That would really mess things up.

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mister.shoes
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby mister.shoes » April 17th, 2014, 11:27 pm

Did that make anyone else feel a little funny inside? No? Just me? Well, then... nicely done, mulad. Exciting to imagine!
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tabletop
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby tabletop » April 18th, 2014, 2:26 am

If we're thinking 20/40/60 years down the road, wouldn't it be a more comfortable solution to remove the HERC from the north loop and use county owned land to expand the station?

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Re: Target Field Station

Postby mulad » April 18th, 2014, 7:22 am

I should say that I forgot to take through-running into account when coming up with those numbers, so that would mitigate the higher estimates a bit.

Yeah, adding something in the HERC space may be an alternative here, though that could involve rebuilding the LRT tail tracks yet again (not shown in the diagram). I suspect that even if HERC went away, the nearby substation might stay, but given enough time for planning, it could probably be moved.

The recent expansion of Target Field gets in the way a bit, though it's also more or less impossible to add through tracks on that side anyway because of the Ford Center and its historic designation.

mattaudio
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby mattaudio » April 18th, 2014, 7:31 am

By the time we have tons of trains, HERC goes away, and we redevelop the Hawthorne Garage, we could do this: http://goo.gl/maps/L530G

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Re: Target Field Station

Postby Silophant » April 18th, 2014, 8:17 am

That little substation between HERC and Target Field is just a step-up for HERC's generator, so it will go away if HERC does.

talindsay
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby talindsay » April 18th, 2014, 10:30 am

Here are the pictures I promised the other day, showing the tail tracks and the station:
Image
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A test train in the tight turn of the tail track (what good alliteration!):
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The tight turn around the far side of the HERC site:
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The best view I've ever gotten of the pantograph in use:
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A view of just how far back the tail track goes:
Image
Image
Image

mulad
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby mulad » April 18th, 2014, 10:37 am

Hmm. Maybe the tail tracks wouldn't conflict with additional freight/intercity/commuter tracks. But that substation would have to go.

Record Machine
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby Record Machine » April 18th, 2014, 11:07 am

mulad wrote:Sooo.... twincitizen posted this image from the swlrtcommunityworks.org website over on the SWLRT thread:

Image
swlrt-royalston-station-area-improvements by Mulad, on Flickr
Still wish they would've put the Vikings stadium there.

jet777
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby jet777 » April 19th, 2014, 7:04 am

So maybe I missed this but walking by the other day made me wonder- what is going to happen to the existing target field LRT station and shelters? Are they coming out?

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Re: Target Field Station

Postby bubzki2 » April 19th, 2014, 8:11 am

jet777 wrote:So maybe I missed this but walking by the other day made me wonder- what is going to happen to the existing target field LRT station and shelters? Are they coming out?
Good question - I've been wondering this too. I can't imagine they'd have two stations so close together, but it can't be cheap ripping one of these out, either.

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Re: Target Field Station

Postby MSPtoMKE » April 19th, 2014, 8:38 am

It will be used to handle crowds after Twins Games. One station for Green Line queues, the other for Blue Line. At other times I would assume the old station will be roped off.
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talindsay
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby talindsay » April 19th, 2014, 9:15 am

Right, it's one station with multiple platforms. I think it would be simpler to call one the blue line platform and the other the green line platform, but speculation has been that everybody will use the new platform except during games.

jet777
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby jet777 » April 21st, 2014, 6:21 am

I can't imagine this platform will ever be used again, because its stupid design requires crossing the tracks to board trains. This has been a DISASTER during games, clogging the area outside of the Northstar circulation entry and requiring the hiring of two people just to keep people from getting run over and one to hold a sign saying "wait to cross" like an elementary school crossing guard. Now it would be even worse to try and safely coordinate with trains entering and leaving every ten minutes from the station 20 yards behind it. The chaos of trying to figure out which platform they should be at would only be exacerbated by the fact that twins fans will likely be drinking more this year to compensate for the mediocre product put together by the pohlads.

Silophant
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby Silophant » April 21st, 2014, 6:39 am

Doesn't every center platform station require you to cross tracks to get to the platform? Short of building a short skyway or tunnel, how would it be otherwise? I mean, a side platform station like DTE solves it for one track, but you still have to cross the tracks to get to the other side.

I do agree that separate platforms for the lines only after games will be more confusion than it's worth, though.

jet777
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby jet777 » April 21st, 2014, 8:04 am

Well for now it's the last station on the line, so temporarily there shouldn't be a need to cross any tracks as you could theoretically always drop off and board on the near side I believe? That's essentially what they've been doing at the existing station in the absence of tail tracks and a track switch? I'm no expert on that so maybe it wouldn't work, but the real answer is to just do what every El, metro, and subway do and have the circulation enter from above or below BETWEEN the tracks. Genius. This couldnt have been easier in this situation since the station is already elevated. Instead they put elevators and stairs only on the inside it appears. No idea why. Perhaps 80 million doesn't buy common sense.

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Re: Target Field Station

Postby MSPtoMKE » April 21st, 2014, 8:54 am

There have been diagrams in the interchange construction materials that clearly show that the different platforms will be used after games with different queuing areas for each destination. For the time being, the side platform at the current station can be used for one if the two lines, so no crossing of tracks is needed for the crowds as they depart, but with the opening of the Southwest Corridor, there will be crossing needed. When you have massive amounts of people exiting a stadium, you are going to need crowd control no matter what, I think calling the current setup a disaster is a bit melodramatic. It doesn't make sense to build a completely grade seperated station that will only be used to its fullest after special events.
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Drizzay
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Re: Target Field Station

Postby Drizzay » April 22nd, 2014, 9:15 am

Down comes the crane! And, unfortunately, camera 4.


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