urbanMSP

Related: Is there anything that you all don't know better than the people who are professionals? Doesn't matter if they're architects, city planners, or (god forbid) transportation engineers -- they apparently don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Poor benighted, souls who have to please a broad range of competing interests and meet a budget...

Please pardon my reckless overgeneralization as I share a theory -

I'm going to guess MNdible is a Gen X'er (i bet he'll correct me if I'm wrong!) and the folks "who think they know better than the professionals" are millennials. Gen Xer's are generally said to have much more trust in institutions, professionals, and credentials. Millennials are more likely to be skeptical of institutions, place less importance on formal education and credentials, and place faith in those who personally demonstrate compentency and good faith, rather than those experts sanctioned by institutions.

Is it possible part of this disagreement we are seeing is indicative of broader generational differences?

MNdible has a point about layman armchair quarterbacks sniping from the sidelines. Surely we don't feel the constraints faced by the actual professionals in the field as we're kicking around ideas.

However, as a quintessential slacker Gen Y'er, I tend to side with the iconoclasts. Surely, I trust the architecs and engineers to build safe buldings and sturdy bridges; I don't want to see folks from outside the profession interferring with their best practices. However, I'm not willing to outsource decisions regarding values to city planners and transportation engineers.

As our scientific knowledge has grown we've made impressive advancements, yet we run a risk of specialized silos where professionals and whole professions start to miss the forest for the trees. Thus, we end up with 50 years of transportation policy that focuses on the narrow goal of moving as many cars as fast as possible, to the detriment of other values. Sometimes it takes an uneducated heretic like Jane Jacobs to 'pon de walls' of the prevailing thinking of the day. Another example may be Michael Pollan's compelling (but nonscientific) attack and food science and nutritionalism.

I think one could make an argument that marginal gains are made within the confines of a profession's silo, but sweeping advancements come from an outside offensive on the assumptions of the silo itself.

Maybe some people's opinions on this board sound like uneducated sniping because they're talking out of school. But its also possible that our values are so different from those these professions have internalized, nothing short of radical change will right the course. From this perspective the slow, careful, marginal change to which institutions are prone seems trivial. Hence the frustration and "overwhelming negativity about our region."

In support of Viktor's argument as it applies to MNdible's comment..

I think the planners, engineers, marketers, etc involved with making our transit system have done a very good job of it given the walls that make up their constraints. They make safe, attractive stations, provide on-time and relatively timely trains, pick routes that (while discussed over and again here in often heated ways) meet the compromise of the budgetary/time/public comments constraints, etc etc. To ensure ridership is even close enough to justify the level of subsidization for transit/rail, they build parking garages for people to leave their cars and hop on the transit (which satisfies environmental goals in reducing individual car trip length as well as congestion goals).

Problem is, this is a false choice in a total world of alternatives. And Metro Council can't (or won't) step back and look at the bigger picture of what is necessary to create a transit system compared to a commuter system. It's a total shift in how and where we live that can be driven from an amalgamation of things from small picture (zoning changes at a local level) to a drastic shift in the economics of living (carbon taxes, etc). I think the Central Corridor and to a slightly lesser extent Hiawatha line are our best attempts at a high capacity, medium-speed LRT line that is less about serving suburban commuters and more about connecting our existing places and people along the way. The SW LRT and Bottineau lines not so much (and if you throw in the Red Line and the other corridors being explored they fall in the commuter category).

Just my take.

My question regarding the article.. isn't the Interchange already going to be adjacent to a huge area of entertainment/bars/food/stadia? Why is anyone seeking for a further deal, especially given the amount of money the state/county have sunk in to Target Field and are putting in to the Interchange itself. Isn't that the point of subsidizing these things.. that then the economic activity will happen on its own?

Victor Vaughn must be Gen Y because his response was overly complicated and contained no "LOL"'s or "BRB"'s. Although I am not a Gen Y I agree with him. Before my own self-importance meter rises too much sometimes I remember that America is great because of free public forums where you are allowed to barf out however Minneapolis development makes you feel and leave yourself open to criticism from someone else sitting on the sofa eating peanuts that also doesn't know shit about what it takes to splice a Green line into a Blue line. It's fun to pretend.

Anyway, as for the Interchange "development" my irresponsible speculation based on their reference to the metro police station is that this has more to do with the proposed building and businesses associated with the space immediately adjacent to the elevated track. All of the renderings have shops and even a hotel but they were all speculative at the time and maybe now there are some more concrete plans for what will get built.

5-13-2013 Construction Photos

Public art requests for the Interchange.

- Granite wall backdrop for the Cascade Amphitheater, $190,000 budget;
- Two cisterns located near the parking garage, $60,000 budget;
- Bench/seating area at the top of the Cascade stairs, $25,000 budget,

http://ballparkauthority.com/interchange_art.html
http://www.ballparkauthority.com/PDFs/I ... ge/RFQ.pdf

Not quite art related - more "green" related. Saw an interesting ad for RTB company that installed some screens around the structural supports for the light rail in Vancouver (http://rtbcompany.com/greenscreen.html) - check out pic on the bottom row, second from left. Great idea for Mpls. light rail or freeway viaducts in the North Loop? Provides opportunity for plants/vines in an area that may not support trees, etc.

Green screening is a good idea IMO. It can take a couple years til it matures but it could be cool. Just wonder what types of vines they could use given limited light under the viaduct...

but a cheap fix to beautify a massive concrete blight

The hop vines growing up the giant metal bats on the target plaza have really worked out well in this 10 months of winter climate.

The hop vines growing up the giant metal bats on the target plaza have really worked out well in this 10 months of winter climate.

Not sure if that's supposed to be sarcastic or not. But I did notice the other day that the hops at Target Field are growing out of fairly small plastic tub -- looks like they may move them off site during the winter. My neighbors house, meanwhile, has been completely overtaken by their hops vines.

I'm really nervous about the Metro Transit Cop Shop they want to set up here. Not that I don't think they should have a presence, because obviously they should, but because it was announced so late in the game when the damned thing was already designed. Like, if they plan on taking up the space that was flaunted as a future site for private development (see "North Loop Hotel" in the older renderings) then that is a huge failure to plan ahead. How does Metro Transit just decide several months into construction that they want to be part of this? Shouldn't that have been a known quantity from the Day One, before this was even called "The Interchange"?

Wow that viaduct looks like a freeway ramp.

well, it IS called the interchange...

I'm really nervous about the Metro Transit Cop Shop they want to set up here. Not that I don't think they should have a presence, because obviously they should, but because it was announced so late in the game when the damned thing was already designed. Like, if they plan on taking up the space that was flaunted as a future site for private development (see "North Loop Hotel" in the older renderings) then that is a huge failure to plan ahead. How does Metro Transit just decide several months into construction that they want to be part of this? Shouldn't that have been a known quantity from the Day One, before this was even called "The Interchange"?

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but it looks like the Transit Police station is going to be under the viaduct (page 8), not in that space where we saw the hotel rendering. Maybe things have changed since January...

http://the2020partners.com/wordpress/wp ... 011513.pdf

That would be pretty great. I like the idea of the corner being finished out really nice. Really the HERC will be really hard to see from the street at that point, which is cool. New development on all corners. Pretty crazy intersection here over the next few years

IMG_3518 by UrbanMSP, on Flickr


IMG_3522 by UrbanMSP, on Flickr

http://the2020partners.com/wordpress/wp ... 011513.pdf

The illuminated "waterfall" illustrated on the last panel ( in the above link) is incredible and will do a lot to enhance and soften the area. Like the fountains at Peavey Plaza, these too should provide a public amenity that reflects our region's wealth of water resources.

If designers deliver, The Interchange will quickly become a favorite gathering, meeting spot and spur for future private investment.

^^ Link: http://the2020partners.com/wordpress/wp ... 011513.pdf

The illuminated "waterfall" illustrated on the last panel ( in the above link) is incredible and will do a lot to enhance and soften the area.

Agreed! I just walked by Bar Louie yesterday and they had one of the "railing fountains" on. I never even knew those were there and it's a really nice touch.

Are they really going to broadcast Twins games up on a giant LED display? With Target Field right next door, that could be *really* cool! I would love to watch a game with live crowd noise.

I'm guessing Hrbek is excited for this project. This will finally draw more people over to his gate. Now, if they could only do something about the view from his restaurant...

http://finance-commerce.com/2013/07/rfp ... ange-site/

The link above from Finance & Commerce has details of $17.5 million being approved to build the transit police facility and enclosed parking adjacent to The Interchange.