Minneapolis Armory

[BoredAgain]

I've longed thought that historic preservationists should start walking the walk when it comes to their beliefs. They've been allowed to sit on the sidelines and micromanage little details to owners and developers who actually take the risk and use their own money to try bring new life to old spaces. This seems like a perfect project for preservationists to step up and put their own money on the line to make this project successful using their ideas.

Everyone can see the economic future of this building is an event space of some sort, if historic preservationist really believe that their ideas are better this would be a great first project for them to take on and tackle. Yes they would have to buy the building but if the HPC is able successful in stoping Abdul efforts I'm guessing he would be more than willing to sell.

What this sounds like to me: "Rich people have money they can spend and should be allowed to do anything they want with it. Poor people get nothing and aren't allowed to complain."

Your further message clarified your point, and I agree with you that the HP crowd can be overbearing, but "historic preservation" is one aspect of public life where we as a society have decided that you aren't allowed to do anything you want just because you own a plot of land. For other examples, see "Environmental Protection", "Hunting rights", "Building Codes", and many others. You can find flaws in how we handle all of these things, but saying "Put up or shut up" is not a way to reduce those problems.

[contrast]

I agree with most of the arguments posted so far, generally that Abdul knew it is historic and would carry extra requirements/expenses, as well as historic assets need preservation. But I strongly feel the most egregious issue is the city/HPC not defining historic parameters until after redevelopment is well underway- that is ridiculous, especially as noted earlier, they had 20 years since the lawsuit to clarify expectations.

When someone comes forward to redevelop the post office, the foundry on 1st Ave N, or some other historic structure, will they wait until 5 months into the renovation to clarify what the rules will be? That is terrible. How can someone decide if they can make a project pencil out and proceed with a renovation if the HPC/City won't publish expectations in advance? I really hope they are working on the post office specs right now- because I don't want that building screwed up by their reactive way of doing things. Why aren't they more proactive?

[Nathan]

I get that, and it's totally applicable when a new historic building comes on the market, but the armory has been a historic chess piece for ages now. There is no other option. It needs perfection.

[VikingFaninMaryland]

I'm not going to take sides on this because I don't know enough about the specifics, including what the developers plans were that made the preservationists so elevated. So what follows is more of a general observation. I have nothing against historical preservation, the need to undertake such an effort, and the need to codify some activities. But I also can't help but take note of the abuse of this activity as well.

The Minneapolis Armory has been decaying into an increasing state of actual decrepitude for decades as it also enjoyed preservation status - being used as a parking garage in that time. No efforts or funds were being raised to not only preserve, but to save the roof and the brick work from decay. Nothing. Then a developer comes along and with his own money, the only money being used to effect repairs and to put the building back into proper form for best usage, and after the project begins, machine ex deus, new requirements are leveled against the facility that are only possible because someone else is putting their money up.

I am not one of those who buys that tax increment finance is "the peoples money" because 1) those dollars are put out to offset costs created by the preservation status, 2) offered to entice developers, and 3) are only based on increased revenue that is specifically due to the developers capital investment.

I suspect there are facts about the Armory development plan that could reasonably influence opinions that we are as yet not privy to. But there is also a truth that preservationists inaction when designated buildings actually crumble into decrepitude (like the Armory was) at some point should have their positions mitigated by their inaction. That's my FWIW.

[trigonalmayhem]

I agree with most of the arguments posted so far, generally that Abdul knew it is historic and would carry extra requirements/expenses, as well as historic assets need preservation. But I strongly feel the most egregious issue is the city/HPC not defining historic parameters until after redevelopment is well underway- that is ridiculous, especially as noted earlier, they had 20 years since the lawsuit to clarify expectations.

When someone comes forward to redevelop the post office, the foundry on 1st Ave N, or some other historic structure, will they wait until 5 months into the renovation to clarify what the rules will be? That is terrible. How can someone decide if they can make a project pencil out and proceed with a renovation if the HPC/City won't publish expectations in advance? I really hope they are working on the post office specs right now- because I don't want that building screwed up by their reactive way of doing things. Why aren't they more proactive?

The city has a problem with being reactive rather than proactive with a lot of things. I don't get the impression that thinking ahead or doing things efficiently are high in their list of priorities. Like 90% of their enforcement of code violations relies on someone else letting them know they should check on something. The whole 311 system is a hilarious way to shirk their duties and pretend they're being responsive to residents' needs.

[Wedgeguy]

If he is going for tax breaks, then his balls are tied to no additions to the building, no ifs, maybes, ands, or butts. He has been developing long enough to KNOW this part of the tax code. There is no playing dumb here, He is doing a calculated move that now has him exposed. Now he wants to say, I did not know I could not do that, just let me do what I think is best.

You can't make additions or deletions to a building that obscures it's historic relevance, which is what he is trying to get around here.

[BigIdeasGuy]

If he is going for tax breaks, then his balls are tied to no additions to the building, no ifs, maybes, ands, or butts. He has been developing long enough to KNOW this part of the tax code. There is no playing dumb here, He is doing a calculated move that now has him exposed. Now he wants to say, I did not know I could not do that, just let me do what I think is best.

You can't make additions or deletions to a building that obscures it's historic relevance, which is what he is trying to get around here.

Even if he doesn't take the tax incentives doesn't the city have him by the balls anyway?

[mister.shoes]

Maybe Abdul didn't show the plans for the additions until recently?

[Wedgeguy]

You don't spring surprise additions on to historic buildings and not expect to get being called out for it. Preservationist will be watching every permit to be pulled and anything out of the ordinary will come under scrutiny.

[VikingFaninMaryland]

If Abdul "sprung" and change in design, it would mean that the relevant historical preservation entity lacked the processes that keep that from happening. When preservation issues are involved, there is supposed to be a development process that ensures any questions are worked out before the first shovel hits the construction site.

If this happened and Abdul simply made his own after approval change, then it is on him. But this seems to be a reach. Developers don't normally do that because it can cause serious legal and repetitional problems moving forward.

It seems to me that there is a problem with the approvals and oversight mission of the preservation groups responsible for such activity. Maybe someone wanted to take two bites of the apple?

[Wedgeguy]

It sounds like both sides did not have things nailed down in detail here. How additions were not noticed is beyond me for the HPC not to notice. But then again Abdul has been working on the Nate's building and going off script from what had been approved from the last design for that building. Might be that there is is not doing anything that changes the exterior of that building. Now he thinks he can do what ever with the Armory, I don't know. But unless he has concrete approval signed off in triplicate at the beginning of the process that this addition was to be part of it, he is screwed to think that an addition this far along will be allowed. Especially if it affects the exterior of the building. I'm no preservationist, but I do know that you can't do major changes to the exterior of a historic building with out jumping thru way too many hoop before you can even get to any approvals. This is not just a small obscure building we are talking about either. But one that has a history of issues related to it's historic status and past talks about putting skyways thru it that were given a great BIG no to.

[EOst]

If this happened and Abdul simply made his own after approval change, then it is on him. But this seems to be a reach. Developers don't normally do that because it can cause serious legal and repetitional problems moving forward.

Sure, but remember that the developer here is Swervo (Ned Abdul), a guy who honestly doesn't seem to care about his reputation or his relationship to the city at all if it'll make him a buck.

[acs]

Before everyone completely tee's off on Abdul, this article is at least worth a read.

http://tcbmag.com/Industries/Real-Estat ... -Ned-Abdul

Also mentions that he's signed another suburban office tenant to fill the remaining space at the Nate's clothing building, to be announced later this year, in addition to Coyote logistics moving from the burbs.

[Wedgeguy]

He is doing Nate's which is a project that is long over due on getting people along 1st. He did 510 Marquette, taking an underused building and making it work. There he kind of cut some quality corners and it shows big time, especially at street level. He much was an arm and a leg for the podium floors as I'm seen nothing that looks like activity except the dental office at the back of the first floor. Think he is the one doing the Western Container building, But that might have been during the wanting to turn it into condo's.

I'll give it to him that when he takes on a project that he gets it done. But like Sabri, with some real Value Engineering, he does not go the extra yards for the touch down and settles on a field goal instead. Would be skeptical of buying a building that was done by a cost cutter. It will probably come back and bite you in the ass in a few years as shit starts hitting the fan from the low quality.

[BigIdeasGuy]

Do we actually know, right now, what exactly Abdul wants to change to the Armory exterior? It seems like the consensus idea is a loading dock of some sort but has that been confirmed?

[Silophant]

I would put a small amount of money on a skyway connection to the Government Center parking ramp. It's a no-brainer for an event center, but super problematic for a historic building.

Though I wouldn't have a problem with it if it only touched the 60s-era wing.

[acs]

If he is asking for a skyway then this gets even more complicated. It may not be a historic addition but a skyway would undeniably in the public good. The armory is really the only way to connect the HCMC skyway system to the rest of the city. That connection would allow better integration for things like parking (less demand for new ramps). Remember, the dayton's building has a big skyway sticking out of its main facade and yet could you imagine the skyways without that crucial connection?

[amiller92]

Remember, the dayton's building has a big skyway sticking out of its main facade and yet could you imagine the skyways without that crucial connection?

Sam Newberg can: https://streets.mn/2014/01/29/nicollet-m ... potential/

I don't think HCMC will ever be connected to the skyways.

[seanrichardryan]

'Meet the man who’s betting big on the Minneapolis Armory'

https://www.minnpost.com/twin-cities-bu ... lis-armory

[amiller92]

The doors were open today. Some glimpses of the inside: