Washington Avenue (reconstruction, restriping, etc.)

[gpete]

Redisciple, given the proposed layouts from Henn. Co, which do you think is preferable?

[woofner]

After reconsidering the actual context of Washington Ave between Hennepin & 5th, I'd say layout 3A and maybe even 3B would be acceptable. I'd been looking at them with the ideal that there would be buildings with active ground floor uses built right up against the street as you would find in a thriving urban neighborhood. In that case, you have to assume that at least 4' of the sidewalk would be used as an extension of those first floor uses - sidewalk cafes in Minneapolis typically, but even just people running into each other at the shop and chatting outside. In that context, 7-8' sidewalks would be terrible.

The actual context, of course, is impenetrable modernist fortresses set well back from the street. Even the historic structures on this segment don't really have much activity along Washington. I would still worry about the south sidewalk getting a bit squished because there is more potential for redevelopment there, but the north sidewalk should mostly be ok under 3A.

I would still prefer the sidewalk space in layout 2, though, and I think they could squeeze an extra foot or two of sidewalk space on each side of layout 3A if they incorporated the gutter pan into the outside general traffic lanes. I would warn against putting the cycle track space next to the sidewalk though, far better to put it next to the vehicular traffic for visibility and less pedestrian interference.

Personally though, I don't like any of them. I think the level of bus traffic merits dedicated bus lanes and I would want to see narrower general traffic lanes and left turn lanes. And the 3rd westbound lane is totally pointless.

[RailBaronYarr]

I think this is the problem with the process as defined. 1) Engineering study done by a company with a narrow view of possible outcomes, needs of a variety of stakeholders, and making possibly faulty to blatantly false assumptions. Possible skin in the game as a potential contractor for the project. 2) Gather input from public who is energetic or concerned enough to voice their opinion (assuming they can make the hearings or remember to go online). 3) Ignore many of the suggestions. 4) Present a few design alternatives and take some feedback from the smaller group of people who make it out. 5) Pick one.

I'll give them credit that it seems like the meeting on Tuesday will take suggestions on alternative designs or ideas not presented by them. However I will bet that most of them will be ignored because they don't meet design standards in some way or another.

I personally think that 110' ROW some sacrifices need to be made if we refuse to have less than 2 auto lanes. I also recognize the challenge of snow removal in a boulevard that has a slip lane or cycle track grade separated. I also recognize bike enthusiasts wouldn't be super pleased sharing a slip lane with 10 mph cars, but again sacrifices may need to be made.

I think general traffic lanes need not be more than 10' wide (25-30 mph should be what 90% of people are driving in the center lanes). I don't think it needs left turn lanes if a right turn area at the end of a slip lane freed up flow in the second traffic lane to pass waiting left-turners. I don't think on-street parking needs to be wider than 7' if it's protected in a slip lane seeing as Ford Expeditions and Chevy Express Vans are 6.58' wide. But maybe that's just me.

[Rich]

Lots of school buses use Washington. Can they safely manuever through 10' lanes? You're not leaving 'em much room for error.

[RailBaronYarr]

Well, the body width of most school and regular city buses is 8-8.25'. If they're driving at 50 mph I don't think maneuvering them in 10' lanes is acceptable. 25 mph I think is fine. Beyond that, this is a prime example of a feedback loop of needing wide streets for big emergency vehicles and buses that were built to fit our really wide streets in the first place.

[Rich]

Having recently chaperoned a few cramped busloads of teens on field trips, I can say with confidence that it'd be next to impossible to make school buses any narrower than they already are. Plus they need mirrors that extend well beyond their body width in order to safely navigate bus stops without endangering smaller children. 10' lanes would be a very tough sell.

[woofner]

If 10' wide lanes resulted in bloody, maimed, screaming schoolchildren, there would not ALREADY BE 10' LANES ALL OVER THE PLACE ALL OVER THE WORLD including in downtown Minneapolis.

[Rich]

Look, I get that narrow lanes exist. I just wonder if it's absolutely necessary to further squeeze vehicles on downtown's only major east-west artery. Instead why can't we narrow the sidewalk "chatting" space outside the cafe? Or would that result in bloodied, maimed, screaming hipsters?

[ECtransplant]

Because pedestrians are more important than motorists

[mattaudio]

Only major east-west artery? So, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th streets don't count?

[mplser]

Because pedestrians are more important than motorists

exactly. motorists don't do anything to improve neighborhoods. It fact, just the opposite.

[RailBaronYarr]

I think the challenge to this project is that the designers/engineers view the proposed section in a vacuum - only considering the stretch from Hennepin to 5th Ave, or even the second chunk to 35W, assuming the inputs and outputs to the system can't/won't change. By that I mean how many cars we expect to arrive downtown at peak and other times. How many choose to drive on Washington vs. other streets. How fast they need to travel (peak speed and travel time from one end to the other). Etc.

I ignore many of those assumptions while still trying to fit in traditional street expectations in my modified multi-way boulevard proposal. I added a bit more detail owing to the fact that mid-block cross section may need to be different than what's at the intersections. Obviously not every block has buildings right up on the property line, and some of them are downright terrible (the WF block being one). In any case, here is a general example of what a 110' ROW cross section could look like:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89584720@N08/8732872888/

- No median in the center, which I would add in 5' where Washington expands to 120' further east, which makes for a great pedestrian refuge island (and giving back 2.5' to each sidewalk
- 12' sidewalk, 9' slip lane that acts as a bike track, and 8' of parking all at the same grade.
- Different material/color for 6' of the 9' of slip lane to denote bikes ride there.
- 29' from property line to median is a pedestrian space, and trees in the 5' median help denote this fact (which also allows more than enough space for emergency vehicles to barge through when necessary).
- Mid-block you lose 1.5 parking space for a concrete build-out to serve as a transit shelter.
- Buses share the outer lane, and down the road this could become dedicated bus or streetcar space (shown on the left with tracks).
- That same outer lane is 11' wide at all times for the school children.
- At the intersections, you get a third driving lane after the slip/parking lane ends. Left-most lane is marked shared left-turn and straight while the right lane is dedicated to right turn, but you could easily flip this and have the left-lane dedicated for left turn only while the right two share straight/right turns.

This adds up to 55' on the nut for each side, so very little wiggle room, but that's fine. If the engineers need some more space for curbs that I'm not taking in to account, the 12' sidewalk can be reduced to 10' and you still have ample safe pedestrian space. We compromise here by not having a truly dedicated cycle track or full-on left turn lanes, but for a street that should be designed to handle local traffic and not be a car funnel to/from the freeway, I think this would be sufficient.

[LRV Op Dude]

http://www.hennepin.us/portal/site/Henn ... fe4689RCRD

A public meeting will be held on May 14, 2013 to seek public input on urban design features including bicycle and pedestrian facilities, streetscaping, parking, and overall integration of these elements along the Washington Avenue corridor. All residents, businesses, property owners and other interested stakeholders are encouraged to attend.

Tuesday, May 14, 2013
5:00 pm - 7:00 pm
Mill City Museum - Mill Commons (Lobby)
704 South 2nd Street, Minneapolis

[PhilmerPhil]

And as an FYI for everyone, I've heard this will be an open house style meeting, so come and go as you please!

[Le Sueur]

This is how I pictured Glenn Gruenhagen on the MN house floor after he was quoted saying the following on the house floor:

"Think about what’s best for the children. Please vote for the children."

[robotlollipop]

I really like this setup: http://boingboing.net/2013/05/10/bike-l ... rease.html

It allows an obvious separation (much better than 1st ave) of a walkway, bicycle lane, parking, and road. It also doesn't look like it would be as expensive as those other concepts that provide the same separation.

[Rich]

That same outer lane is 11' wide at all times for the school children.

[RailBaronYarr]

That same outer lane is 11' wide at all times for the school children.

I was just proving it can be done with oversized (IMO) lanes - I think all driving lanes can be 10', the parking could be 7' (not 8, why design for our largest personal vehicles instead of the middle 68%), and the right turn lane could even be trimmed down.

It's interesting that the Hennepin Cty project page has cross-sections for each block along the whole stretch of Washington, for each layout. Interesting to see how it changes along the way. I also think it's odd that the 110' sections (west of 5th Ave) proposed have more lanes of thru traffic and no on-street parking whatsoever. Is it because of the current land-use there? Why not build with the expectation of it slowly becoming a place instead of ensuring it won't be?

Who all from here will be showing up at some point or another tomorrow night?

[mattaudio]

There's still time to change to a more sensible design between 5th Ave and 35W, since that's not part of the first phase.

Also, what's the actual chance this meeting will have an impact tomorrow? Most "open houses" I've been to, including a SWLRT Open House at the library, were geared towards informing the public of what the county preferred and not oriented towards receiving legitimate feedback from the public.

[RailBaronYarr]

That's my worry as well - they already DID their due diligence and came up with 4 whole concepts - isn't that enough for us? Can't we just pick the 'best' of them and be happy with it?