Washington Avenue (reconstruction, restriping, etc.)

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
mattaudio
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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby mattaudio » December 3rd, 2012, 1:12 pm

Here's my idea... http://goo.gl/maps/DMJhr
...take note of the modified split diamond interchange with the inside ramps for high volume movements. The existing interchange and trench for Washington Ave is a mess, and many of the ramps (such as from south 35W to 3rd/4th) are VERY low volume.

It would require a lot of regrading and a few new bridges, but I bet it would be cheaper to maintain in the long run than a lot of the existing outdated ramps in that area. It would also help build strong connections between Mill District, Elliot Park, Seven Corners and Cedar-Riverside.

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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby helsinki » December 4th, 2012, 4:01 am

Here's my idea... http://goo.gl/maps/DMJhr
...take note of the modified split diamond interchange with the inside ramps for high volume movements. The existing interchange and trench for Washington Ave is a mess, and many of the ramps (such as from south 35W to 3rd/4th) are VERY low volume.

It would require a lot of regrading and a few new bridges, but I bet it would be cheaper to maintain in the long run than a lot of the existing outdated ramps in that area. It would also help build strong connections between Mill District, Elliot Park, Seven Corners and Cedar-Riverside.
This is an amazing idea. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to build/maintain?

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mister.shoes
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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby mister.shoes » December 12th, 2012, 12:41 pm

I agree that it's an amazing idea. I haven't been able to get it out of my head for days now. So, naturally, I fired up Photoshop and made a version of your map that looks Google Maps "real". I didn't put the air rights park or dev on this map, but even without there's obviously a huge amount of new land available for some really nice improvements. I also wasn't sure how you thought the LRT would cross 4th Street—whether it was at-grade or if you'd keep the underpass—but I went for at-grade. And for good measure, I extended both Norm McGrew and the Hiawatha Bike Trail to Washington.

(Click to embiggen both of these)
Redone
[thumbnail]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16815944/dte-redone.jpg[/thumbnail]

Existing
[thumbnail]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16815944/dte-existing.jpg[/thumbnail]
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Nick
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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby Nick » December 12th, 2012, 1:04 pm

Oh wowzers look at that. Can I share that on our Facebook page?
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mister.shoes
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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby mister.shoes » December 12th, 2012, 1:14 pm

Of course! As long as matt's cool with it.

What does everything think of enhancing that idea a little more to reconnect S 2nd Street across 35W as well? I can't quite tell or remember if there'd be enough vertical clearance to allow it.
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Nathan
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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby Nathan » December 12th, 2012, 1:22 pm

Build it!

mattaudio
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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby mattaudio » December 12th, 2012, 1:42 pm

Yes of course! Honestly it's great that we sort of crowdsource these ideas and some people have the skills to map them out better than I do. I've also emailed Joel some more details about the "West Bank Circle" part of the proposal which would be great to see mapped out.

I know the interchange design above looks like it's just as much a jumble of crap as the existing one, but I don't think it is.... First of all, it coexists with the grid instead of splicing it. Second, it actually requires fewer bridges. Except for the tuckunder for the ramp to 94 West, it's really just three simple bridges at Washington, 3rd and 4th. Finally, it has direct ramps where there are high volume traffic movements (between downtown and 35W to the north, and between the University and 35W to the south) but low volume movements might require three lefts (such as eastbound 3rd St > northbound 14th Ave > westbound 4th street > southbound 35W).

It also paves the way for future organic urban growth to reconnect these neighborhoods. The first benefits would likely be air rights development at Washington Ave, basically making the freeway disappear and reconnecting Mill District and West Bank. It also reconnects the 7 Corners area of West Bank with the Cedar-Riverside area to the south, especially with 15th Ave S and maybe air rights development facing Cedar Ave. Finally, way down the line, we could even see development over the interchange block itself. In my early proposal, this would be a park over most of that interchange block to extend the walk/bike plane of the Washington Ave bridge to downtown, and to reduce the impacts of the interchange on the adjacent land uses. Air rights developments can even cover up freeway portals -- I walked past one earlier this year in Seattle... http://goo.gl/maps/23YY0 ... obviously that wouldn't happen until land values were much much higher, but my point is we just need to lay the groundwork so adjacent land parcels are able to capture land value in a slow, steady, organic way.

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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby David Greene » December 12th, 2012, 1:57 pm

I LOVE this idea! It really would clean up the area.

Doing a "google maps real" photoshop of some of the Bottleneck change ideas would be very informative.

https://streets.mn/2012/06/28/fix-the-h ... ottleneck/

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Avian
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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby Avian » December 12th, 2012, 2:40 pm

Great job! I love how this makes sense of the entire DTE/West Bank and eliminates so many dead-end corners of the area. Some years ago there was a study that concluded that blight tends to occur in dense urban areas that have been disconnected from the greater network of movement. Much like blood clots that occur in constricted veins. Clearing and restoring the flow of people tends to improve neighborhoods and increases development.

For example, that existing stub of 3rd Street near the Valspar bldgs becomes, in the new plan, a highly visible and accessible piece of property. Presumably with increased potential for property tax revenues.

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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby martykoessel » December 12th, 2012, 3:19 pm

I very much like the way you recreated the street grid and opened up more area for development.

One point of confusion: Both the Washington Ave. and the 4th St. entrance ramps to southbound 35W from downtown are eliminated in your plan. What do you intend as a replacement?

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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby mattaudio » December 12th, 2012, 3:26 pm

According to previous studies, that's one of the least used traffic flows. Most people get from downtown to 35W south via 4th Ave, or Hiawatha via 8th Street. It would also be possible with three lefts (such as eastbound 3rd St > northbound 14th Ave > westbound 4th street > southbound freeway).

I intentionally left it sort of open ended with regard to the freeway interchange to the south. I have another idea in the works on paper that un-freeway-ifies Hiawatha and reconnects part of the street grid across the 35W and 55 cuts further south. No matter what, the movement from 35W south to 94 west would definitely require that flyunder ramp. Since the local traffic would be approaching the freeway between lanes heading for 35W south and 94 east, it would be easy to split the ramp to service both directions. Even if it was important to maintain directional connections to the Hiawatha "freeway" this would still be possible (and better than the current lane change nightmare) as proposed.

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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby martykoessel » December 12th, 2012, 3:39 pm

How about adding an entrance ramp from 13th Ave. S. to the 35W southbound entrance ramp you show curving from S. 3rd St?

Also, I don't quite understand why there are split exits from southbound 35W to 3rd St. S, especially since 3rd St. is one way westbound and it seems both would end up heading the same place. Does 13th Ave. S. bridge over 3rd St. in your plan?

Thanks for helping me figure out what you're aiming at.

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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby martykoessel » December 12th, 2012, 3:46 pm

How about avoiding all those left turns by adding an entrance from 13th Ave. S. to 35W southbound, connecting to the entrance ramp you show curving from 3rd St. S?

Also, I don't understand why there are split exits to 3rd St. from 35W southbound, especially since 3rd St. is one way westbound and both exits would therefore seem to end up heading the same way. Do you intend for 13th Ave. to bridge 3rd St., with the righthand exit then bypassing the intersection with 3rd St?

Matt, thanks for helping me see more clearly what you're trying to do.

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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby mattaudio » December 12th, 2012, 3:49 pm

Actually I had just submitted the ramp you talk about to mister.shoes... it should be on the next revision he has been creating. I agree, it would be useful. I forgot that while many people do not connect from 4th to 35W, more people connect from Washington to 35W. This is a connection worth keeping since it requires very little impact.

The split exits exist from 35W in both directions. Basically since these are two of the top four traffic movements according to recent studies, I thought it would be challenging to the grid and to local street use if people entered a street from the left, then had to immediately cross all lanes to turn right. This is already a problem along 35W in South Mpls and 94 in St. Paul, where cars to/from the freeway have to cross the one-way local streets that share the ramps. My idea was to connect these ramps via the inside and give them their own signal phase, so instead of making that right turn, they just stay to the left on the ramp then continue across the intersection. Just an idea, though, and it could be done more traditionally with a single ramp.

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mister.shoes
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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby mister.shoes » December 12th, 2012, 8:50 pm

Here's my revision after talking to Matt to get a better idea of what he was thinking for that "West Bank Loop" that he had as a purple line in the original GMaps version. I also added that on ramp from 13th to 35W SB and reconnected 2nd across 35W, vertical clearance issues be damned.

Again, click to embiggen.
[thumbnail]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16815944/dte-redone-rev1.jpg[/thumbnail]

Edit: Image edited in-place to remove the split off-ramp leading to 14th Ave/4th St. Matt realized that it was [obviously] not necessary.
Last edited by mister.shoes on December 12th, 2012, 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mattaudio
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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby mattaudio » December 12th, 2012, 9:20 pm

I like the 2nd Street idea... actually one way to make it easier would be to remove the ramp from Washington to 35W northbound... It would be fine for people to cut back to 3rd or 4th St to get on 35W northbound.

Also, the eastern "West Bank Loop" is obviously an independent idea, but it is mainly to help rebuild Cedar Ave as the main street of the neighborhood between C-R and 7 Corners. The image shows the Washington Bridge approaches meeting 19th Ave S at grade, but it would also be possible to keep these under the bridge and come up to grade at Cedar (this is what I had originally envisioned, but ".shoes" opened my mind to the possibility of keeping it at grade until east of 19th Ave. In fact, the reason why I had reversed the 3rd St block inside the loop was to provide easier connectivity to the East Bank via the bridge.

Finally, it would be great if people had ideas for how we could deal with 3rd St at the LRT, or 13th Ave S which would obviously have trouble getting through where the brand new Central interlocking is, or other ways we could reconnect the grid around here.

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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby fehler » December 13th, 2012, 9:11 am

Washington is a main connector and business district. Any removal of direct access between I35W and Washington is a non-starter. Yes, connect to some of the other avenues. I like 2nd Street having a more direct connection to the 10th Ave bridge. And I like 4th/Riverside connection (though I'm trying to see a way to connect Riverside to 5th/6th, I think it would be better served). But the one-way Roundabout you created on the West Bank looks like a mess.

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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby mister.shoes » December 13th, 2012, 12:20 pm

The county is doing a survey on the "grand boulevard" concept. I filled it out and the dutifully pointed them to this thread in the "additional comments" section.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Washingto ... ignConcept
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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby kellonathan » December 13th, 2012, 4:03 pm

The county is doing a survey on the "grand boulevard" concept. I filled it out and the dutifully pointed them to this thread in the "additional comments" section.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Washingto ... ignConcept
Thanks for the link! I just filled it out as well and added a link to the Congress for the New Urbanism's "Designing Walkable Urban Thoroughfares" webpage for reference. They have some great resources that Mpls might want to take a look. Washington Avenue has so much potentials that shouldn't be wasted.

http://www.cnu.org/streets
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mattaudio
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Re: Washington Avenue

Postby mattaudio » December 15th, 2012, 7:45 pm

I was thinking about this some more... if we were going to reconnect the grid and get rid of the trench, it would be easiest just to jog 4th Street to keep it on the north side of the LRT tracks. http://goo.gl/maps/XzhFy

The only casualties might be a small corner of the Valspar building, and the LRT substation at Chicago.

Ideally, the tracks would slide south to where the current street is east of Chicago, then the new street wouldn't have to be so close to 3rd... but that sounds spendy.


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