Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Parks, Minneapolis Public Schools, Density, Zoning, etc.
RailBaronYarr
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby RailBaronYarr » October 6th, 2017, 2:42 pm

So, I'm not sure if this is the best thread, or if the study was even shared yet, but....
http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 205222.pdf

This is really cool, comprehensive, etc. I won't say much on it for now, but the findings of this study run counter to the one that's been shared 'round here before. There's a *lot* of retail sales leakage from Minneapolis neighborhoods, particularly in the "Community" and "Neighborhood" retail categories. The report notes that many of those places are served quite well by the retail districts just outside the city borders. But that also ignores people who don't/can't drive who might be better served by growth in retail within the city, densification of certain neighborhoods that necessitate retail cluster growth, etc.

Anyway, food for thought.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby MNdible » October 6th, 2017, 3:09 pm

This report apparently dates back to June of 2016 but is just seeing the light of day now, and so its Nicollet Mall numbers are hugely inflated by all of the new vacant Macy's space.

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mister.shoes
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby mister.shoes » October 9th, 2017, 12:26 pm

The map on Page 9 is wild. It's almost as though retail in the 'burbs is set up specifically to cater to MPLS residents.
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mister.shoes
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby mister.shoes » October 9th, 2017, 12:29 pm

P.S. I know it probably isn't and it's a more a function of the way the various cities grew together, with heavily-residential areas ringing older commercial areas. But it's still crazy to see so clearly in red and white like that.
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby amiller92 » October 9th, 2017, 12:32 pm

Wait, would you say that the 'burbs are subsidizing Minneapolis by taking all the undesirable retail?

It's funny what happens to your shopping patterns, though, when you decide you're mostly not going to drive to shop. Turns out you can get stuff in the city just fine (helps if you're going downtown anyway).

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Anondson
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Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Anondson » October 9th, 2017, 12:33 pm

I wonder if there could be a conversation with residents in the neighborhoods in those “retail-sheds” about what need to happen to get their shopping spending spent in Minneapolis as much as possible. Keeping local dollars spent locally helps cities and neighborhoods stay resilient, and all that Strongtowns-ish stuff.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby MNdible » October 9th, 2017, 1:17 pm

They had that conversation a while back, and it resulted in the construction of The Quarry Target.

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Anondson
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Anondson » October 9th, 2017, 1:46 pm

Zing!

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Sacrelicio
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Sacrelicio » October 9th, 2017, 4:52 pm

MNdible wrote: They had that conversation a while back, and it resulted in the construction of The Quarry Target.
I wonder what it would look like now, with Amazon and denser development patterns.

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seamonster
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby seamonster » February 13th, 2018, 10:13 pm

Recently updated?

http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/

Minneapolis is 15th densest, while St Paul is 21st.

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jtoemke
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby jtoemke » February 14th, 2018, 8:12 am

seamonster wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 10:13 pm
Recently updated?

http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/

Minneapolis is 15th densest, while St Paul is 21st.
The growth for Minneapolis/St Paul looks great. Milwaukee, (our peer city?) on the other hand took a nose dive :(

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby rhettcarlson » February 14th, 2018, 9:32 am

If we want to make ourselves feel good, look to Milwaukee. Otherwise I think we aspire to Denver and Seattle. Look at that growth in Seattle... 42,000 people in two years. Maybe we'll surpass Oakland by the 2020 census if we're lucky.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby alexschief » February 14th, 2018, 9:34 am

I never look too closely at Minneapolis and St. Paul's respective populations and densities. Both city's boundaries are so small compared to almost every other comparison. Denver and Seattle, for instance, encompass three times the land of Minneapolis. But Seattle's total controlled area is forty percent water, and Denver's land area includes an airport. It's not really worth making comparisons city to city, because they're all drawn so differently. It's more helpful to make comparisons between different measures of metro areas, because at least they all use the same rules.

In other population news, over 43,000 people now live in "downtown" Minneapolis (this definition includes parts of St. Anthony, parts of Marcy-Holmes, Loring Park, Elliot Park, the North Loop, Mill District, Warehouse District, and CBD). That's up around 30%, or 10,711 people, in the past decade. Just under 2,600 people were estimated to have moved downtown in the past year, which is the most in that decade. So the shift might be increasing. On the Minneapolis development tracker, I count 1,907 units currently under construction, and another 560 directly outside the borders of 'downtown' (Nordhaus and 333 Hennepin). I count 2,242 units currently proposed (and we still don't know about Opus' plans for the rest of the Ritz block, which would likely be another residential tower), and another 446 directly outside the borders (all in St. Anthony and Marcy Holmes). All told, that's 5,155 new units that—if everything goes as planned—could be open by 2020. Conservatively, that could be another 10,000 people.

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seamonster
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby seamonster » February 14th, 2018, 10:01 am

alexschief wrote:
February 14th, 2018, 9:34 am
I never look too closely at Minneapolis and St. Paul's respective populations and densities. Both city's boundaries are so small compared to almost every other comparison. Denver and Seattle, for instance, encompass three times the land of Minneapolis. But Seattle's total controlled area is forty percent water, and Denver's land area includes an airport. It's not really worth making comparisons city to city, because they're all drawn so differently. It's more helpful to make comparisons between different measures of metro areas, because at least they all use the same rules.
Regarding population, I agree completely. Colorado Springs has more people than Miami. Jacksonville more than San Francisco. Meaningless. That's why I prefer density, even if it is imperfect. Do they take the water area into account? Are our lakes and river an impediment? The list of densest cities is basically (disregarding suburbs like Santa Ana): NY, SF, BOS, MIA, LA, CHI, PHI, DC, SEA, MPLS. That's fine company IMO.

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Sacrelicio
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Sacrelicio » February 14th, 2018, 10:24 am

seamonster wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 10:13 pm
Recently updated?

http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/

Minneapolis is 15th densest, while St Paul is 21st.
It's interesting how Minneapolis is basically the exact same size as Oakland, in both population and area.

KML_1981
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby KML_1981 » February 14th, 2018, 10:27 am

I never knew we were so neck-in-neck with Oakland before!
seamonster wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 10:13 pm
Recently updated?

http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/

Minneapolis is 15th densest, while St Paul is 21st.

KML_1981
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby KML_1981 » February 14th, 2018, 10:31 am

seamonster wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 10:13 pm
Recently updated?

http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/

Minneapolis is 15th densest, while St Paul is 21st.
Also, looks like it won't be much longer until Houston is the 3rd largest city overtaking Chicago. But, man, look at that difference in density!

SurlyLHT
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby SurlyLHT » February 14th, 2018, 10:59 am

I wouldn't be surprise if the gap between the densest and least dense cities grows over time. I could see those without density having trouble maintaining infrastructure and services and thereby losing population as those who are dense gain population as they sustain or expand services.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby tmart » February 16th, 2018, 4:28 pm

seamonster wrote:
February 14th, 2018, 10:01 am
alexschief wrote:
February 14th, 2018, 9:34 am
I never look too closely at Minneapolis and St. Paul's respective populations and densities. Both city's boundaries are so small compared to almost every other comparison. Denver and Seattle, for instance, encompass three times the land of Minneapolis. But Seattle's total controlled area is forty percent water, and Denver's land area includes an airport. It's not really worth making comparisons city to city, because they're all drawn so differently. It's more helpful to make comparisons between different measures of metro areas, because at least they all use the same rules.
Regarding population, I agree completely. Colorado Springs has more people than Miami. Jacksonville more than San Francisco. Meaningless. That's why I prefer density, even if it is imperfect. Do they take the water area into account? Are our lakes and river an impediment? The list of densest cities is basically (disregarding suburbs like Santa Ana): NY, SF, BOS, MIA, LA, CHI, PHI, DC, SEA, MPLS. That's fine company IMO.
Comparing density is also made very difficult by different municipal organizations. San Francisco is incredibly dense, true...but it's basically a 49 square mile carveout of the densest part of the Bay Area. On paper, Los Angeles has less than half the density...but ten times the land area, including areas very similar in composition to South San Francisco, Oakland, and other municipalities adjacent to and integrated with, but not inside the city/county limits of, San Francisco.

A lot of the information captured by a density chart is more about where the city limits were drawn, and less about the neighborhoods where people live. You're not comparing like to like when you pick two cities off that table.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby SurlyLHT » April 16th, 2018, 6:13 am

After this blizzard I want to give a shout out to density and how it makes life possible during storms like this. My wife and I live just south of Downtown and were able to walk to the Downtown library and take the Green Line to check out the Fresh Thyme at the U of M. The trains were running off schedule, but still pretty frequent (I suspect cars kept getting stuck on the tracks) and the skyways were toasty warm and well-trafficked, but as usually had lost souls looking for US Bank Stadium.

Many decry density and their not being parking or the cost of transit projects, but during a blizzard the Urban core is way more resilient than the suburbs I grew up in.


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