Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Parks, Minneapolis Public Schools, Density, Zoning, etc.
EOst
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby EOst » April 16th, 2018, 7:38 pm

Until they melt? Actual snow *removal* (as opposed to plowing/piling), beyond being expensive, is extremely carbon-intensive.

Multimodal
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Multimodal » April 16th, 2018, 8:06 pm

We urbanists talk about how services & infrastructure are so much more efficient with density, as you have many people paying for the same mile of infrastructure/service.

And yet why is Mpls & St. Paul’s snow plowing so much slower than many suburbs?

Is it the parked/stuck cars in city streets? Is it a smaller budget (vehicles, drivers) per capita or per mile? Or something else?

mamundsen
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby mamundsen » April 17th, 2018, 7:11 am

There has been at least some snow removal. The marq2 bus stops aren't behind 3 foot drifts today. Is that the property responsibility? I notice Wells Fargo Center is always very clean (even yesterday).

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby mattaudio » April 17th, 2018, 7:52 am

It's because other cities wage "perpetual war on winter terror" which means far more off-street parking. Other cities may have it better a few days a year when there's a major snow event to clean up, but Minneapolis and St. Paul have it better 90+% of the time.
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby xandrex » April 17th, 2018, 8:55 am

David Greene wrote:
April 16th, 2018, 6:11 pm
I understand the benefits of living in the city. That's why I live there. What people hate is when other people are smug about their own perceived superiority based on some situation that is insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

The implicit message here is that people are somehow poor decision-makers/to be pitied/whatever for living in the suburbs. That's not a great way to change minds and hearts.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
I don't know that we need to be smug. The lifestyle I want doesn't fit neatly into a suburban setting, and for some folks it's the opposite.

But I saw plenty of complaints from friends, family, and general folks on Twitter howling that they couldn't get anywhere, so they were stuck for the weekend and getting stir crazy. We promote more dense living for its access to jobs and services, smaller climate impact, etc. We don't need to say, "You should live in an apartment because then you can go places during a huge blizzard in April!" But it's completely legitimate to add to the list of benefits: Weather-related impacts to your schedule can be minimized (which will be really important as more extreme weather becomes the norm!).

Some people like staying cozy in their home. And that's okay! But for people like me who go stir crazy if they're stuck in their apartment all weekend, it was nice that, with just a little extra time, I was able to get all my usual errands done, attend a group fitness class (the only attendees that made it lived nearby), and head downtown for entertainment on the "worst" night of the storm. That's not a selling point for everyone, but it certainly is for me!

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby MNdible » April 17th, 2018, 10:00 am

My all caps shoutiness was mostly being silly, but partially a response to the tendency to have to turn every flipping thing into an us vs. them test, per David's response.

BTW, I was tempted to head out on foot to one of the nearby restaurants that was noting on Twitter that they had food prepped and nobody to eat it. I didn't (even though it would have been fun), because I already had enough dinner for twelve cooking in the oven.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby min-chi-cbus » April 17th, 2018, 10:21 am

My wife's parents were in town over the weekend from Cleveland (you'd be surprised how much complaining we heard about the weather, ironically) and they decided to stay at the Double Tree Hotel near the West End in St. Louis Park -- originally for two key reasons: 1. close proximity to where we live, and 2. close proximity to activities within walking distance at the West End. And it was precisely because of this (relatively) urban setting in St. Louis Park that we were able to commute back and forth from our house to their hotel with relatively little issue, whereas had they been much further away we would have had to completely revamp logistics plans for the weekend. Although we decided not to brave the elements and walk around outside with two small children in tow, we had the OPTION to simply walk across the street from the hotel to shopping, food, grocery, and entertainment, as well as the option to walk to the grocery store near our house when my wife and I came back home at night. And we were able to drive about through the blizzard and choose from multiple options to get around if some streets were shoddy or a stalled vehicle was blocking a route (and we were driving an ordinary Chevy Impala sedan, which sucks in snow/ice).

I have to admit that these options made me feel much less claustrophobic/stuck/frustrated than I would have otherwise been had we not been able to easily go back and forth to the hotel where her folks were staying, and I imagine it must have been a huge relief for both my wife and her parents who had anticipated seeing her and the kids (they'd be okay without me ;) ) during the weekend. And to keep to the topic of this thread, the urban/semi-urban environment and increasing population density and redevelopment may make these options even easier in a year or two if/when the hotel is built at the PLACE site at Wooddale Ave and Hwy. 7, which is even closer to our house (though not as fun as West End).

Although entirely anecdotal, I also had a slight sense of relief/self praise to be within an urban/semi-urban network that enabled us to do all of this. Smug isn't how I'd describe this feeling, but more like just happy with our living choices at that moment.

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Bob Stinson's Ghost
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Bob Stinson's Ghost » April 17th, 2018, 10:35 am

I've been wondering lately how BRT compares to rail in the area of winter resilience. Perhaps some of the experts could comment.

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jtoemke
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby jtoemke » May 31st, 2018, 7:14 pm

http://www.startribune.com/st-paul-led- ... 483164791/

St Paul apparently beat out Minneapolis for population growth last year. Good for them.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby CalMcKenney » July 1st, 2019, 3:39 pm

Don't know where to put this, but this is a huge pet peeve of mine and I want to hear thoughts. There was a story in the Star Trib about the Kraus Anderson HQ block redevelopment including their new "Larking" apartment building. Anyways, they simply referred to Downtown East as "East Town." Someone responded the following:

"Agreed. One of the smaller downtowns there is in the major markets. Calling it “east downtown” is part of the insecure Minneapolis effect. They wish to be a big city, but in reality are a very small city. Remember folks - even Columbus Ohio is twice as big!"

Okay main question here, do we feel that we will never been taken as seriously as a city as we should be because we didn't annex most of our suburbs and therefore have a smaller city-proper area and population? I know this is just one comment, but I feel it signifies a problem for Minneapolis that I constantly deal with with my friends who think of Minneapolis as "small and boring." Minneapolis is a part of the 16th largest metro in the United States, but I fear most people judge a city's importance and stature by doing a quick search of their population in Google.

I think all of us here know that Minneapolis is actually a much more dense, vibrant and important city compared to Columbus (and most "big" US cities) we just happen to have a smaller physical size (size of city in square miles) and therefore a smaller population, and I fear we will continue to be left out of the national conversation on great cities because of this.

Thoughts on this anyone? Maybe I'm being irrational, but I'd like to hear if anyone else has ever wondered the same thing.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby karlshea » July 1st, 2019, 5:16 pm

This is why you use statistical areas instead of city boundaries. Unfortunately that's not really gonna change that commenter's mind. And the fact they're commenting at all comparing Mpls to Columbus Ohio means there's some sort of grudge going on in the first place.

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Anondson
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Anondson » July 1st, 2019, 6:05 pm

Saying Columbus is bigger than Minneapolis in this context is not wrong but it not a serious comment and disqualifies them as a serious person.

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jtoemke
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby jtoemke » July 1st, 2019, 6:44 pm

Anondson wrote:
July 1st, 2019, 6:05 pm
Saying Columbus is bigger than Minneapolis in this context is not wrong but it not a serious comment and disqualifies them as a serious person.
As someone who lived in Minneapolis and currently lives in Columbus, this drives me crazy.

1) Everyone here thinks Minneapolis is small, frigid, or has barely heard of it.
2) Everyone here thinks Columbus is big.

Columbus has way more in common with Indianapolis than somewhere like Minneapolis.

Transit is unfortunately atrocious.

The only thing is wins in is a true urban shopping corridor - the Short North. But, Columbus is rapidly urbanizing and turning their core around. So that's great.

Summary: Minneapolis feels about 3X as big.

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seamonster
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby seamonster » July 2nd, 2019, 3:51 am

https://www.columbusnavigator.com/colum ... ed-cities/

This quote: "With a population density of 3,914 people per square mile, Columbus dwarves cities like Anchorage and Jacksonville."

Comparing oneself with two of the LEAST dense cities that the average Joe could name...who has the fragile ego here?

BTW: Minneapolis population density is approx 7,000 people per square mile.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby Silophant » July 2nd, 2019, 7:31 am

City importance is a pretty subjective thing, obviously, but I think one of the more useful sources is the Associated Press's list of domestic cities that can stand alone in a dateline, without their state being specified.

Now that I've looked at it, I'm curious if the Columbian inferiority complex is based in part on both Cincinnati and Cleveland appearing on that list, but not Columbus.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby QuietBlue » July 2nd, 2019, 8:10 am

Let them be misinformed. People's ignorance of the size and importance of the Twin Cities is annoying, but so is our insecurity about it.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby MNdible » July 2nd, 2019, 8:51 am

Silophant wrote:
July 2nd, 2019, 7:31 am
City importance is a pretty subjective thing, obviously, but I think one of the more useful sources is the Associated Press's list of domestic cities that can stand alone in a dateline, without their state being specified.

Now that I've looked at it, I'm curious if the Columbian inferiority complex is based in part on both Cincinnati and Cleveland appearing on that list, but not Columbus.
Columbus's absence on that list probably has more to do with it being a fairly common city name. Note, for example, the similar absence of Portland on the list.

cooperrez
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby cooperrez » July 2nd, 2019, 10:02 am

Anyone who compares the population of just Minneapolis, without St. Paul, against the population of any other city, isn't really comparing apples to apples, even if you disregard the suburban annexation issue, which I don't think you can btw.

Minneapolis and St. Paul make up the central core of the Twin Cities. Nationally, people use the name Minneapolis for both cities, but when looking at the numbers and statistics they tend to split up the cities.

It would be very difficult for someone new to the area to detect when they leave one and enter the other (maybe less so after a snowstorm). It's even difficult for some who have lived here for a few years, not to mention suburban dwellers who have lived here all their lives.

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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby karlshea » July 2nd, 2019, 10:22 am

Well, again, that's literally why statistical areas exist, because the city borders or population within don't really matter in a metro area. Milwaukee is "bigger" than Minneapolis if you're just looking at population inside the boundaries of the city itself, but clearly the "city" isn't. It's 96 sq mi and Mpls is 57, because of the suburb annexing issue that was brought up. You've got to look at the metro as a whole as economically and geographically tied together:

Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI MSA: 3,629,190 (16th)
Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN-WI Combined Statistical Area: 4,014,593 (16th)

Columbus, OH MSA: 2,106,541 (32nd)
Columbus-Marion-Zanesville, OH Combined Statistical Area: 2,509,850 (26th)

Milwaukee-Waukesha, WI MSA: 1,576,113 (39th)
Milwaukee-Racine-Waukesha, WI Combined Statistical Area: 2,049,391 (33rd)

mplsjaromir
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Re: Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby mplsjaromir » July 2nd, 2019, 7:16 pm

Across the northern city limit of Milwaukee there are literal farm fields. So yeah it’s much more suburban than Minneapolis.


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