Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Parks, Minneapolis Public Schools, Density, Zoning, etc.
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Minneapolis Density and Population Growth (500k, etc)

Postby twincitizen » December 16th, 2012, 3:08 pm

Minneapolis Sees High Density Future: http://www.startribune.com/local/minnea ... 61591.html

I figure many of us have already read it, so we might as well continue the discussion here. Obviously most of us understand the need for the city to grow up, stabilize the population, broaden the property tax base, etc.

The comments on the article are split 50/50, but the thumbs trend pro-Minneapolis, pro-density (anti- 'murrica).

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they mis-quoted Erica Christ (chair of the Whittier Alliance board). I don't think she's saying that she (or the WA board) is literally opposed to anything over 4 stories, but that she was paraphrasing the general attitude of the neighborhood. From what I know of Erica, she's quite savvy with urban issues, transit, too much surface parking, etc.

*EDIT...I'm actually not sure about the Whittier thing now. There might be a literal opposition to buildings over 4 stories.

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby min-chi-cbus » December 16th, 2012, 4:36 pm

I wrote a comment about the Nicollet/Lake redevelopment "height limit" as proposed by the neighbors but I don't see it posted. Basically the neighborhood would prefer for a 4 floor height max, but I have NO IDEA where that comes from since there are three 20+ floor towers very nearby and this location almost abuts Interstate I-35W. If anything height and mass would do a lot to improve any freeway noise the area receives. Besides, just about all of the "neighbors" in the immediate vacinity of K-Mart rent, not own. That's not to say that renters shouldn't have any say in what goes into their neighborhoods but certainly it should have less weight than homeowners do (I am a renter, btw).

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby woofner » December 17th, 2012, 1:51 pm

I noticed that the article mentioned Bob Corrick and noted that he "chairs the land use committee of a neighborhood group that has been sparring for years with developers who want to put more high-rise housing on the north end of Lake Calhoun", but failed to note that he owns one of three houses in the neighborhood that could potentially be directly affected by a high-rise there.

That's the thing with saying some are for it and some are agin it, and then just quoting reps of neighborhood associations - those things are vehicles for citizen participation, but there's nothing democratic about them. They give voice to the people who show up (at meetings that are usually only posted online and are in the evening and rarely offer childcare). I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Minneapolitans were against any change, but I don't think the difference between a 4 and 6 story building matters to most of them. And most will be quite happy with a 6 story building being built 2 blocks or 2 miles away if it lowers their property taxes, or raises their property value.
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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby twincitizen » December 17th, 2012, 4:20 pm

You're right about the neighborhood groups being undemocratic. They fancy themselves as quasi-branches of the city government with actual power. To the extent that they receive a portion of the city budget, they are, but there are surprisingly few checks and balances to the inclusiveness of these groups as well as how our tax dollars are being spent. Who is monitoring how many staff they employ, how much they are spending on renting private market office space, or if they are doling out home/business improvement loans to members of the board? Who is making sure the boards aren't 100% composed of white ladies over 40 who own single-family homes?

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby min-chi-cbus » December 17th, 2012, 4:22 pm

I'd actually be surprised if the majority of Minneapolitans were against a tower or two on the north end of Lake Calhoun, just as long as it were "classy" and fit in well. The people most against change in that area are the SFH owners behind it and some of the older people who've lived here their whole lives and don't want to see anything ever change. I bet more people in the city want to see continued progression over sameness.

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby MNdible » December 17th, 2012, 4:43 pm

twincitizen wrote:Who is monitoring how many staff they employ, how much they are spending on renting private market office space, or if they are doling out home/business improvement loans to members of the board? Who is making sure the boards aren't 100% composed of white ladies over 40 who own single-family homes?
Do I take it from your post that you're volunteering to give up a couple of nights a month to monitor your local neighborhood group?

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby twincitizen » December 18th, 2012, 11:14 pm

Holy effing christ: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/201 ... _bear.html

We need to get our house in order

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby Nathan » December 18th, 2012, 11:35 pm

I really think that a lot of people who are static in our community need to start getting out in the community. There are plenty of people who value development, who just assume the job is getting done. There needs to be community outreach, people who get people talking about what it means for (particularly south) Minneapolis to develop and become dense and livable. If we let certain people control the neighborhoods it will continue.

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby seanrichardryan » December 18th, 2012, 11:53 pm

Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby min-chi-cbus » December 19th, 2012, 9:08 am

twincitizen wrote:Holy effing christ: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/201 ... _bear.html

We need to get our house in order
I am almost speechless......the notion that these people are that selfish that they would RATHER have less supply to boost the prices of their properties in lieu of meeting demand with additional supply (new construction) makes me absolutely furious! It also means that people would rather not accomodate others who want to live in the same area they do and upward prices almost always limit the socioeconomic diversity of the population that CAN live in an area. Limiting growth for the sake of higher private land values does almost nothing to improve a city! How selfish can people be! If I were a homeowner and saw that there was unrelenting demand to live where I live, I HOPE my response to that wouldn't be: "good, let's limit/eliminate new construction so nobody can move in unless they pay much more than my property is worth!"

In Chicago when my parents lived in a North Side enclave near Lincoln Park, when a new high-rise condo was proposed at the end of their block their reaction was elation....because they realized that increased demand was warranting the new supply, and it didn't hurt them because they owned a townhome -- a completely different housing type with different demand demographics. But the mere fact that there was so much demand for living in that area was the "winning ticket", so to speak, but there was no NIMBY'ism from my parents whatsoever. They realized the benefits that come with high demand and more people -- better everything that was outside the walls of my parents' home!
Last edited by min-chi-cbus on December 19th, 2012, 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby min-chi-cbus » December 19th, 2012, 9:12 am

fotoapparatic wrote:I really think that a lot of people who are static in our community need to start getting out in the community. There are plenty of people who value development, who just assume the job is getting done. There needs to be community outreach, people who get people talking about what it means for (particularly south) Minneapolis to develop and become dense and livable. If we let certain people control the neighborhoods it will continue.
Good point. Density in America has a bad vibe and it's probably because people's fears are much worse than the reality. Density in America does NOT usually mean living in tight quarters and feeling caustrophobic. Most of the density that is occuring in Minneapolis is of the upper-middle income/high income variety, and that kind of density has plenty of elbow room and luxurious amenities....AND the ability to walk from place to place. It's really the best of both worlds! Developers aren't stupid -- they will accomodate what the market wants and they KNOW that many of the clients who are clamoring for space in the city are used to a suburban lifestyle, so the developments take on a lot of those characteristics.

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby mister.shoes » December 19th, 2012, 9:16 am

min-chi-cbus wrote:
twincitizen wrote:Holy effing christ: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/201 ... _bear.html

We need to get our house in order
I am almost speechless......the notion that these people are that selfish that they would RATHER have less supply to boost the prices of their properties in lieu of meeting demand with additional supply (new construction) makes me absolutely furious! It also means that people would rather not accomodate others who want to live in the same area they do and upward prices almost always limit the socioeconomic diversity of the population that CAN live in an area. Limiting growth for the sake of higher private land values does almost nothing to improve a city! How selfish can people be! If I were a homeowner and saw that there was unrelenting demand to live where I live, I HOPE my response to that wouldn't be: "good, let's limit/eliminate new construction so nobody can move in unless they pay much more than my property is worth!"

In Chicago when my parents lived in a North Side enclave near Lincoln Park, when a new high-rise condo was proposed at the end of their block their reaction was elation....because they realized that increased demand was warranting the new supply, and it didn't hurt them because they owned a townhome -- a completely different housing type with different demand demographics. But the mere fact that there was so much demand for living in that area was the "winning ticket", so to speak, but there was no NIMBY'ism from my parents whatsoever.
This attitude you rail against (rightfully) seems to relate at least a little bit to what Visualizer was describing. No?
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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby min-chi-cbus » December 19th, 2012, 9:18 am

mister.shoes wrote: This attitude you rail against (rightfully) seems to relate at least a little bit to what Visualizer was describing. No?
Definitely! I'm no protester but I just hate the elite attitude that everything that happens outside of my control must be to my own self benefit. It's normal to be a bit greedy or selfish, but I just feel this is so over the top. Maybe I'm misconstruing their point of view, but I don't think so....

I'm not a minority but I feel like one at times in parts of the Twin Cities where natives severely outnumber non-natives. I grew up in a family with parents from other parts of the country (pretty much the Chicago-Milwaukee region), and never had a strong sense of native MN pride and social attitude that native MNs sometimes have. As a result, anytime I was in said areas I myself felt like an outsider if I didn't go along with the majority flow. That's one of the few things I dislike(d) about MN, that I wouldn't want for my children either. I assume that's changed a lot by now, especially with the continuing "melting" of the Minneapolis pot.

*Edit: and the NIMBY article demonstrates the kind of attitude and basically segregation that makes people sometimes feel like an outsider or not part of the group.

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby mnmike » December 19th, 2012, 9:54 am

min-chi-cbus wrote:In Chicago when my parents lived in a North Side enclave near Lincoln Park, when a new high-rise condo was proposed at the end of their block their reaction was elation....because they realized that increased demand was warranting the new supply, and it didn't hurt them because they owned a townhome -- a completely different housing type with different demand demographics. But the mere fact that there was so much demand for living in that area was the "winning ticket", so to speak, but there was no NIMBY'ism from my parents whatsoever. They realized the benefits that come with high demand and more people -- better everything that was outside the walls of my parents' home!
I have had a different experience in Chicago. I have very good friends with an expensive condo in Greektown...that neighborhood is very against a new proposal on the Crowne Plaza block that would be 47 stories of rental. This is an area that is just 6 blocks from the Sears (Willis) tower, and the neighborhood is up in arms about it, and organizing against it. I, of course, have tried to convince my friends that this is a perfectly logical place for 47 stories, but to no avail. I am pretty sure this is the more common view in the neighborhoods surrounding downtown Chicago. On the other hand, if a highrise is proposed from the south loop, and up LSD all the way to Lincoln Park, not usually a big deal at all(as long as they aren't trying to develop too far from the shore), but try to put a highrise outside of that and you will run into the same issues. I had a similar experience with friends who had a townhome in Lincoln park near Belden and Lincoln. A 10 story building was proposed on their block of 3 to 5 story townhomes/buildings(there is already a 10 story hospital complex right there!), and the neighborhood had meetings to fight it. Nimby's are everywhere:) Nice that your parents were not that way.

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby min-chi-cbus » December 19th, 2012, 12:25 pm

Greektown is a protected area with very historic and cultural roots though...

Although I'm sure NIMBY'ism exists everywhere, the City of Chicago usually does whatever it wants whenever it wants when it comes to land and development....I kid you not!

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby mattaudio » December 19th, 2012, 12:55 pm

...such as Daley's bulldozing a runway in the middle of the night to get rid of an airport.

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby FISHMANPET » December 23rd, 2012, 10:15 pm

seanrichardryan wrote:Related http://netdensity.net/2012/12/18/2947/
I don't give a shit about what the existing residents think when taking their views into consideration means ignoring the views of the potential residents. I'm sure in this case Bob Corrick and many others like him would love it if nothing changed, but what do all the potential new residents think? Who's lobbying for them?

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby Nick » December 24th, 2012, 2:25 am

You don't give a shit? Is that the most diplomatic way you can think to phrase that?

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby mplsjaromir » December 24th, 2012, 5:06 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:
seanrichardryan wrote:Related http://netdensity.net/2012/12/18/2947/
I don't give a shit about what the existing residents think when taking their views into consideration means ignoring the views of the potential residents. I'm sure in this case Bob Corrick and many others like him would love it if nothing changed, but what do all the potential new residents think? Who's lobbying for them?
The link is more evidence of people protecting their turf. Planners are always gonna be in favor or more planning.

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Re: Star Tribune article: Minneapolis Sees High Density Futu

Postby FISHMANPET » December 24th, 2012, 10:20 pm

Probably a good thing I'm never going to run for office, since I'd be pretty unelectable. Plus, nobody holds elections for benevolent dictator.

But still, I have no sympathy for people like Bob Carrick, or the Linden Hills neighborhood, or any other place complaining about development destroying the "character" of a neighborhood. What gives them the right to decide when a neighborhood has reached peak character? Who lobbies for the potential residents?

The way I read that article is that we already have this big comprehensive plan built with citizen input blah blah blah, but if the end result is nothing over 4 stories can be built in an area as valuable as Lake Calhoun because it'll affect the "character" of the neighborhood or make it harder to drive their single occupancy vehicle to work or whatever lame excuse, well then at that point I think the process is intellectually bankrupt.

I'm glad there have been NIMBYs that have stopped freeways, and I have no problem with a neighborhood group negotiating with a developer for better design or things like that, but when it becomes blocking market rate units for the sake of blocking new construction, I start to get angry.


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