Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

[David Greene]

That wetland wilderness preserve costs more than zero to maintain and doesn't get you anything in revenue to pay it back. Unlike, say, a golf course.

Does it cost as much to maintain as a golf course? As much as a typical city park? The Park Board maintains lots of things that don't generate revenue.

For God's sake, how long will it take before people accept that government/public facilities shouldn't be run like a business?

EDIT: Proper quoting.

[mattaudio]

Parks shouldn't be run like a business.

Golf courses should be.

[David Greene]

Sorry, I way replying to acs and tried to be courteous by not quoting. It bit me like I said it would when that whole controversy was discussed.

[David Greene]

Golf courses should be.

No, I don't think so. Not if they're public. We can certainly argue (and I have many times) that golf is not a good use of public dollars. But I see no reason why public golf courses need to turn a profit, provided we have sufficient resources to subsidize them and we think golf is a good idea (hint: it's not).

[Archiapolis]

Golf courses should be.

No, I don't think so. Not if they're public. We can certainly argue (and I have many times) that golf is not a good use of public dollars. But I see no reason why public golf courses need to turn a profit, provided we have sufficient resources to subsidize them and we think golf is a good idea (hint: it's not).

Maybe one of the geniuses on this thread can quickly produce profitability numbers of public golf courses or maybe even specifically on Mpls public golf courses. I'd wager that they (as a "system") are NOT profitable. Some public courses are fantastic and "the jewel" of the system and those seem like they could be profitable (based on the significantly higher greens fees at said courses) but those are the exception, not the rule.

I just look at all of the maintenance for a golf course (even a "crappy" one like this) and think that there is NO way that they can be profitable but maybe I'm wrong. Disclaimer: Before I get blasted for calling this a crappy golf course, this is relative to all golf courses that exist within an hour of the city center. I understand that greens fees are all relative and everything is relative and all of that - I was on the golf team for a year in high school and have played a multitude of golf courses across the gamut. I no longer play the game because I don't value the game/cost given other interests that I have.

"Public" golf courses should attempt to be at LEAST revenue neutral. If they can't be, then let's discuss why they are missing the mark and THEN discuss if subsidizing them is a good idea because it doesn't seem like we have "sufficient resources to subsidize them" given other needs that we have.

[EOst]

"Public" golf courses should attempt to be at LEAST revenue neutral.

I'd be happy if we ripped out every golf course in the metro, but I can't agree with this. If golf courses are a public good (if), then we shouldn't expect them to be revenue-neutral any more than a basketball court is.

Again, I'm not a golfer, and I don't really care about the sport. But I don't see why they--alone among public recreational facilities--are required to produce their own revenue. It's great, historically, that they have. But that shouldn't be the dealbreaker.

[RailBaronYarr]

Yeah it's not about the absolute cost. People actually pay to golf. So even if they're not profitable, a golf course might still cost the city (net!!) less per acre than a basketball court or baseball field or playground or big dog park by the river. That doesn't mean it's not worth it to spend more on other things that benefit more people (at zero price to the user, which as societal benefits to low income people).

[acs]

FYI, Hiawatha was/is self sustaining as a golf course, per the area commissioner Steffanie Musich in this article: http://www.startribune.com/ending-pumpi ... 382959171/

[seanrichardryan]

Here ya go.

https://www.minneapolisparks.org/_asset ... s-2017.pdf



If I remember correctly, the flooding of both Meadowbrook and Hiawatha cut the golf revenue for several years. It was profitable before and is projected to be again. Now winter sports seems like the real money suck.

[MNdible]

But again, in the interest of the greater good, if winter sports (presumably things like the Wirth Park Chalet, etc.) can get people outside and active during a time of year when they'd be otherwise sitting around on their duffs, isn't it acceptable if they're losing some money? It's so weird how certain government services must pay for themselves, while others can receive enormous subsidies and nobody here bats an eye.

[Archiapolis]

But again, in the interest of the greater good, if winter sports (presumably things like the Wirth Park Chalet, etc.) can get people outside and active during a time of year when they'd be otherwise sitting around on their duffs, isn't it acceptable if they're losing some money? It's so weird how certain government services must pay for themselves, while others can receive enormous subsidies and nobody here bats an eye.

I knew the geniuses would come up with the budget numbers.

I think that you are starting to get to the heart of the issue. How do we assign value to assets?

It *seems* like assets that can generate revenue SHOULD as long as it isn't in opposition to agreed upon values (i.e. putting a cell phone tower on top of the Lake Harriet Bandshell). This is how I'm evaluating it but I'm a guy that knows nothing about the MPRB budget and how values are assigned/evaluated.

Intuitively, it seems that the resources dumped into (or pumped out of) acres upon acres of golf course(s) seems counter to conservation of resources and global stewardship BUT, if there are lots of people walking *cough - not happening* then perhaps there are benefits to be weighed against the negatives that I've identified. Despite my negativity about golf courses, perhaps there is great benefit to cross-country skiers and that value needs to be calculated as well and after all of these things are calculated we get a useful tool to evaluate an MPRB asset.

Someone has to be doing this kind of thing already right? Again, I'm late to a lot of parties so I'm asking innocently and perhaps this territory is well-trod.

[Anondson]

Looks like planning that was done for Meadowbrook has been for naught.

https://content.govdelivery.com/account ... ns/1500a12

Here's a copy and paste from the link just emailed out to subscribers.

Reassessing options for Meadowbrook Golf Course improvements and reopening the course
In June 2014, Meadowbrook Golf Club was closed after record rainfall caused Minnehaha Creek to overflow and the golf course to flood. Over the next 16 months, Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board (MPRB) staff, Minnehaha Creek Watershed District staff, neighbors, golfers and other community members brainstormed ideas to re-imagine Meadowbrook Golf Club as a premiere golf course.

Based on those ideas, three design concepts were created and presented to the public. Based on community feedback, a design was chosen which included substantial improvements to the course, including re-meandering or the moving/altering of Minnehaha Creek and mitigating flood conditions on nine holes. In early 2016, the project was sent out for bid.

Bids for re-configuring and restoring the golf course have been rejected and efforts are being directed towards a plan better aligned with available funding from defined sources. A key constraint to the original plan that has changed is the fact that our current Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) funding for restoration is not, as previously thought, a one-time opportunity. A future flood could be addressed with future FEMA reimbursements.

In addition, the need to align green fee pricing with area competition precludes the golf course from being able to finance the restoration as previously envisioned. These parameters suggest that the MPRB pursue a more achievable golf course configuration closer to the current course layout with adjustments focused on supporting the Minnehaha Creek Watershed District’s re-meandering of the stream. Staff continues to investigate options that would allow for course improvements while also exploring the potential for reopening the course with limited improvements in 2017.

[David Greene]

The solution here is obvious.

[minneboom]

More news on winter sports and bike center at Theodore Wirth park. It would be great to see something like this at the Hiawatha Golf Course also.

http://m.startribune.com/winter-sports- ... 389222351/

[mister.shoes]

Review and vote on proposed trail changes around Lakes Harriet and C*****n: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/CalhounHarrietTrail

[Anondson]

Advocates proposing turning the locks into more park.

http://www.startribune.com/riverfront-a ... 397154421/

[Anondson]

Ambitious parks plan will have maintenance and operations costs "skyrocketing".

http://www.startribune.com/regional-par ... 397169371/

Maybe a golf course out in the western suburbs could be sold to help?

[Anondson]

Zero bids.

http://www.startribune.com/developers-d ... 408083366/

Outreach to developers asking why no bids, some were put off that it was an extended lease, extensive community engagement (is this euphemism for "waste of time and money to be told everything is awful?), and of course the limited street access.

[seanrichardryan]

It used to have pretty good access until they gave away all the ROW to Graco.

[Anondson]

Park board seeking new bids for Meadowbrook.

http://finance-commerce.com/2017/01/new ... golf-club/