Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Parks, Minneapolis Public Schools, Density, Zoning, etc.
MNdible
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby MNdible » June 18th, 2019, 9:59 am

amiller92 wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 9:47 am
Yeah, apparently I'm not yet sufficiently anti-car.
[sound of my head exploding]

[winking emoji]

QuietBlue
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby QuietBlue » June 18th, 2019, 10:01 am

People probably won't use 62 instead, though. They will use the other streets that run parallel to the Parkway.

I don't have an opinion on this proposal yet, but it wouldn't reduce the overall amount of traffic in the area, just redistribute it. Sure, the Parkway itself would be safer, but putting more traffic on the other residential streets nearby will make those so.

amiller92
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby amiller92 » June 18th, 2019, 10:29 am

Oh, I don't know about that. Taking away capacity may well reduce trips. I mean, induced demand and all.

But yes, whatever trips aren't eliminated will use 50th and 54th/Diamond Lake Road instead if they can't avoid the area entirely.

QuietBlue
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby QuietBlue » June 18th, 2019, 12:23 pm

It's possible that it may enter into people's decisions over the long run. I was admittedly thinking more about the near-term -- people still need to commute, drive their kids around, etc.

Didier
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby Didier » June 18th, 2019, 12:37 pm

I can't imagine there are many trips on the Parkway for which 62 would be the next-best fit. Not saying that as a good or bad thing, just an observation.

LakeCharles
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby LakeCharles » June 18th, 2019, 12:58 pm

My dad takes the parkway coming from Highland Park in St. Paul to my sister's at Lyndale & 54th. These changes will almost certainly push him to 62. One anecdote, for sure, but I don't think it's so unusual.

amiller92
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby amiller92 » June 18th, 2019, 1:39 pm

Not that I particularly care how people re-route, but that seems like a trip that would be particularly well-suited to just divert to 50th at the first barrier.

RedDutch
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby RedDutch » June 18th, 2019, 1:44 pm

I live on 2nd Ave (East frontage of 35W) and 50th. I use Minnehaha daily in both directions. It is a great way to get around the neighborhood and is RARELY congested...….only during both rush hours. Getting on 35W at 46th has sucked in the past 2 year because of all the closures due to construction. So using the parkway to get to 35W at 54th or down Portland to get to the crosstown is essential.

There are very few intersection on the Parkway that actually get backed up, Cedar, Portland and 50th.....even those are manageable. Someone called the Parkway a highway.....that is absurd. People really do drive slowly through the parkway and like I said ….there really isn't THAT much traffic. Yes....there could be some improvements but overall I think it is a waste of money!

mattaudio
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby mattaudio » June 18th, 2019, 3:00 pm

Interestingly enough, I proposed left turn lanes at intersections like Cedar.... Shocker, I'm not anti-car either... The reasoning being if you had a protected left turn phase off the parkway onto Cedar, you could offer significantly more protection to the people bicycling or walking in the crosswalk. I've discussed this concept a number of times with Park Board staff, and they ultimately decided not to include it in their most recent draft from May 30. Their reasoning? Adding turn lanes would further induce traffic... Which is true! They say the fact that it currently takes multiple light cycles to get through some of the stoplights such as Cedar, Chicago, or Portland result in fewer people using the Parkway for crosstown trips. Eliminating some of that congestion would induce demand for more motorists on the parkway, and yes that's true. I just wonder what the right balance is, since we're deciding that the parkway east of Portland is a crosstown commuter route yet we're not willing to make the intersection changes necessary to protect people walking or bicycling in conflict with turning motor vehicle traffic.

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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby mattaudio » June 18th, 2019, 3:02 pm

amiller92 wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 1:39 pm
Not that I particularly care how people re-route, but that seems like a trip that would be particularly well-suited to just divert to 50th at the first barrier.
That's what most traffic does anyways, based on the traffic counts and matched with anecdotal observation. The Parkway is a de-facto extension of 50th St. I keep hearing motorists who dislike having to drive the curvy segment near Washburn. I drive that segment all the time, and it's not bad. It's just you often have to go 25-30 MPH (which is, good?) instead of 35-40 MPH as most people do on 50th west of Lyndale.

ko123
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby ko123 » June 19th, 2019, 7:25 am

LakeCharles wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 12:58 pm
My dad takes the parkway coming from Highland Park in St. Paul to my sister's at Lyndale & 54th. These changes will almost certainly push him to 62. One anecdote, for sure, but I don't think it's so unusual.
Same ... frequently take parkway between Lynnhurst and Nokomis even though 62 is faster. It is worth the extra 4 minutes.

amiller92
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby amiller92 » June 19th, 2019, 9:06 am

mattaudio wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 3:02 pm
That's what most traffic does anyways, based on the traffic counts and matched with anecdotal observation. The Parkway is a de-facto extension of 50th St. I keep hearing motorists who dislike having to drive the curvy segment near Washburn. I drive that segment all the time, and it's not bad. It's just you often have to go 25-30 MPH (which is, good?) instead of 35-40 MPH as most people do on 50th west of Lyndale.
Biked through last night during rush hour and was surprised at the extended flow of eastbound traffic "turning" to stay on the Parkway. Meanwhile, a westbound car was trying to turn left onto 50th, which stopped traffic in that direction and was helpful for me trying to cross to continue on the trail. A lady in convertible trying to turn left off of 50th was offended on my behalf that the eastbound cars were not yielding to my crossing.

So, yeah, the proposed barriers there would also improve traffic flow.

MNdible
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby MNdible » June 20th, 2019, 9:59 am

Is it just me, or does this seem like a very stupid idea?

Commissioner floats idea to add affordable housing to Bde Maka Ska pavilion

amiller92
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby amiller92 » June 20th, 2019, 10:12 am

I've seen others have that reaction, but I think it is something interesting to think about. The Park Board shouldn't get in the business of operating apartments, but leasing the air rights to a nonprofit (or MPHA??) that could seem like it's worth exploring rather than dismissing it out of hand.

MNdible
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby MNdible » June 20th, 2019, 10:21 am

I agree that the Park Board shouldn't get into housing, and that we shouldn't be building non-park functions on park land (which is supposed to be a bedrock park board principal that some board members are very casually ignoring), but my biggest issue is this:

This particular location is probably the most important piece of land in the whole park system. It's already got so many competing demands on it, that it just absolutely doesn't make any sense to compromise these public functions so that we can add 15 or 20 units of housing. It's a stupid trade-off.

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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby EOst » June 20th, 2019, 11:10 am

It's not a hill I would die on, but I appreciate the outside-the-box thinking.

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mister.shoes
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby mister.shoes » June 20th, 2019, 10:41 pm

So going back to the Minnehaha Parkway discussion...

As I mentioned a ways upthread, I live quite close to the intersection of Portland and the Parkway. We walk and bike the trails both directions from Portland all the time. Our children are almost-5 and just-past-2, so we're vividly aware of keeping little ones safe through that nasty intersection. We also drive it both directions regularly—heck, I use it as my primary access to/from 35W as I head to Edina for work every day (which, btw, I feel the need to disclose as the recommendation from MPRB would screw up my routine quite a bit).

Anyway, I've been brewing an idea for quite some time, and I'm ready to share it with the world. For reference, here is the Park Board's recommendation for the redo of that general area (page 2 in the PDF).
https://www.minneapolisparks.org/wp-con ... 190530.pdf

And here is mine:
PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ss56ea6aj16wp23/idea.pdf?dl=0
JPG: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r6labwwprcmr55m/idea.jpg?dl=0

Notes:

- Split one-ways should turn over as much space to the creek and non-motorized users as possible.
- They should also end up providing more access to the park itself for people wanting to play, particularly EB.
- For the record, I live just north of the Creek, so sticking WB traffic on "our" side is a hard pill to swallow, but it's for the best IMO.
- Red indicates raised or specially-paved intersections. I'm aiming for the slowest possible traffic through those spots.
- The bike lanes on Portland, Park, and Chicago would be at curb height for a short distance past the intersections with the Parkway.
- Moving the walking trail north of the creek between Portland and Chicago allows for more room for stormwater handling on the south side.
- Taking advantage of the Parkway stub between Elliot and Chicago does the same.
- Everything is pretty darn close to at-scale. I spent a lot of time with the measuring tool on the Hennepin Co GIS site.
- 10' bike trail, 8' pedestrian trail, 6' sidewalks, 16' boulevards along the Parkway, etc.
- Small roundabouts: 42' diameter center, large one: 64'.
- Speaking of GIS, I very much intentionally used a map with property lines so we could see just how much space is theoretically available.

Car-specific notes:

I tried to disperse traffic at the three-way intersection with 50th:
- Drivers heading south on Portland will probably end up using 51st.
- Drivers heading north on Portland will have several options: go around on the Parkway, take a left from 51st, go up 4th Ave, etc.
- Drivers heading east on the Parkway can go around or use 51st.

I tried to make Park Ave an enticing NB route:
- The roundabout should at least inspire drivers to go North instead of west to Portland before turning.
- That said, traffic heading north needs to go slower than the current raceway intersection. Again, roundabout.

OK, tear it to shreds.
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fehler
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby fehler » June 21st, 2019, 1:42 pm

Needs street labels, I can't tell where this is supposed to be.

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mister.shoes
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby mister.shoes » June 21st, 2019, 3:09 pm

Whoops. That layer had gotten turned off before export. Fixed. Thanks for the reminder.
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davidejames
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby davidejames » June 22nd, 2019, 5:38 pm

Love the idea you drew up.


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