Permit Parking

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David Greene
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Permit Parking

Postby David Greene » July 15th, 2014, 11:07 pm

National Night Out is coming up again and thus the annual conversation on our block about permit parking. In the past there wasn't much support but it seems to be growing. I am very much against permit parking because I don't believe we should be privatizing a public good. However, that argument doesn't really appeal to the self-interest of those who want permit parking. Nor does, "if you want parking near your house, provide it yourself on your property."

I have sometimes thought about asking whether metered parking would be better but of course that wouldn't meet the objectives of those who want permit parking.

I need some help formulating an argument that will convince people who want permit parking that it is not good for them. I can tell them that restricting street parking is only going to result in more surface lots or structured parking in the future. But even that's not all that convincing to someone who owns a SFH near Uptown.

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Re: Permit Parking

Postby seanrichardryan » July 15th, 2014, 11:14 pm

Well, for one it makes it very difficult to entertain more than a few friends (that is, if they arrive by car.)
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Minneboy
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby Minneboy » July 16th, 2014, 4:13 am

^Depends on what the time limits for the permit parking is.

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mattaudio
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby mattaudio » July 16th, 2014, 7:01 am


David Greene
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby David Greene » July 16th, 2014, 9:42 am

^Depends on what the time limits for the permit parking is.
Where I live at least, the crunch is usually in the evening, prime time for hosting visitors.

David Greene
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby David Greene » July 16th, 2014, 9:43 am

Parking is not a public good.
It's a public good in the sense that it should be shared. Whether or not we charge for it is a completely separate question. Roads are a public good and we charge for them. With permit parking, only a small number of people pay for and can use the resource. That restricts supply and leads to more parking lots.

David Greene
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby David Greene » July 16th, 2014, 9:46 am

The other thing permit parking would do is drive customers away from businesses. Parking on Lake or Lagoon is pretty much impossible and everything south of Lake is already permit parking. Sure, you can tell people to park in the Calhoun Square or Mozaic ramps but some people will simply refuse to do that and take their dollars elsewhere. Maybe that's ok, I don't know. It is somewhat appealing to have people pay for their parking. Again, I'd be totally fine with metered parking in the Wedge but that'll never fly.

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Re: Permit Parking

Postby PhilmerPhil » July 16th, 2014, 9:53 am

How do you price parking on residential streets without marring the streetscape with meter posts?

EOst
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby EOst » July 16th, 2014, 9:55 am

How do you price parking on residential streets without marring the streetscape with meter posts?
Numbered spots and a central meter machine, usually. That's a bit pricy though.

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mattaudio
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby mattaudio » July 16th, 2014, 9:57 am

We need to charge for every single on-street parking space in the city of Minneapolis. A hybrid approach of residential parking permits, and meters.

Keep in mind it's not necessary with modern technology to designate numbered spaces in areas with less parking demand.

It's not progressive to give away parking for free. It's subsidizing motordom at the expense of people who don't store their cars on public streets.

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mister.shoes
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby mister.shoes » July 16th, 2014, 10:01 am

Honest question, Matt, not snark: as a resident of the rather low-density Field neighborhood who only sees a parking crunch on TC Marathon day when people come cheer at the nearby major intersection, how does priced parking work for me? Especially for a generic week/end in July when I just spent five days using my garage and driveway for power tools instead of my car(s)? $0.01/day, because demand is virtually zero year-round?
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David Greene
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby David Greene » July 16th, 2014, 10:04 am

We need to charge for every single on-street parking space in the city of Minneapolis. A hybrid approach of residential parking permits, and meters.
I don't necessarily disagree with your first statement but I don't understand at all how permit parking is a good way to do that. You're restricting the number of people than *can* pay for parking, which would drive the price lower, no? You're artificially reducing demand. If we're going to charge for parking we ought to make everyone eligible to pay.

Anondson
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby Anondson » July 16th, 2014, 10:10 am

When people are applying to improve their property and apply for neighborhood grants/loans, do we allow for this to be used to create off street parking? Maybe it should be in neighborhoods with very tight parking?

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mattaudio
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby mattaudio » July 16th, 2014, 10:14 am

You're artificially reducing demand. If we're going to charge for parking we ought to make everyone eligible to pay.
If we "artificially" reduce demand by charging just a fraction of the public's cost to provide a private good, pavement used for on-street car storage, then over time we can adjust supply accordingly. The public would save tons of money that could be spent on other more useful things like transit, affordable housing, etc.

Also I'm curious what you meant by that last sentence. What would it mean if everyone was eligible to pay?

David Greene
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby David Greene » July 16th, 2014, 10:17 am

You're artificially reducing demand. If we're going to charge for parking we ought to make everyone eligible to pay.
Also I'm curious what you meant by that last sentence. What would it mean if everyone was eligible to pay?
With permit parking, only a small number of people can park in the area. No one else may park there, thus those people can't even pay to park. Shouldn't we let everyone pay if they want to?

Maybe the solution is to do permit parking but open up the permits to anyone.

kirby96
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby kirby96 » July 16th, 2014, 10:17 am

Well presumably it would be offset by increased demand and higher prices elsewhere (assuming the demand didn't just go away). But your point is well taken. Take it to the absurd conclusion: everyone in the blocks south of Lake Street gets rid of their cars. So we just have empty streets generating no revenue? At that point we would just go back to metered parking. So why not simply do that in the first place? The reason seems to be so solely so that local residents wouldn't have to walk very far (i.e. again nuturing the car culture).

kirby96
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby kirby96 » July 16th, 2014, 10:18 am

Maybe the solution is to do permit parking but open up the permits to anyone.

Which is just a modification of metered parking.

David Greene
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby David Greene » July 16th, 2014, 10:20 am

Maybe the solution is to do permit parking but open up the permits to anyone.
This is basically what we do in places like Minnehaha park. It's metered parking but there are no meters. You purchase a temporary permit that goes on your dashboard. I'd totally be on board with installing permit machines on each block and making people buy one to park. They don't even have to have short time limits. Buy a daytime permit, an evening permit or an overnight permit.

If there was some way to tell the machine a car has left we could even do demand pricing.
Last edited by David Greene on July 16th, 2014, 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mattaudio
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby mattaudio » July 16th, 2014, 10:28 am

Yes, I am categorically opposed to permit parking as we do it today. Where only residents can pay to park. If there's demand to park on a street, anyone should be able to pay the market rate, not just residents.

David, the post right above mine is the same idea I had - maybe we're on the same page here.

David Greene
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Re: Permit Parking

Postby David Greene » July 16th, 2014, 10:30 am

David, the post right above mine is the same idea I had - maybe we're on the same page here.
Yes, I think so. I didn't realize you'd redefined permit parking. :)


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