Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Douglas to Lake St)

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
David Greene
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby David Greene » March 20th, 2017, 5:41 pm

Who said anything about killing the bike lane?




MNdible
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby MNdible » March 20th, 2017, 5:43 pm

In a location like this, it might be more important to have some pick-up/drop-off bays than actual parking.

I'm skeptical that it's ever going to make sense to have bike lanes on Hennepin from Lake north to Franklin, which makes their inclusion between Lake and 31st less useful. I'm agnostic on the bike lanes from 31st to 36th, but I feel like the wider sidewalks would be much more beneficial to many more people in the block between Lake and 31st. There's only so much space available.

Presumably they've looked at the numbers, and they don't merit a left turn lane from southbound Hennepin onto 31st.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby LyndaleHoosier » March 20th, 2017, 8:39 pm

Yikes, tough crowd. Thanks for the thoughtful response, RailBaronYarr as I was seeking to understand opinions and other points of view to expand my understanding.

To the others who provided nothing but snark, pound dirt.

Personally, I think cars, bikes, buses, trains, and pedestrians can all exist and do exist and I use all of the modes of transportation, including my feet on a regular basis. Again, I was seeking to understand and I'll definitely be more cautious in asking a question in the future. I've been more of a lurker than participant for the past several years and I don't want to incite your need to respond with snark.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby twincitizen » March 21st, 2017, 8:34 am

I often used Girard & Fremont as one-way pairs between 36th & Lake (and beyond, to the Greenway, etc.) If I'm in southern CARAG, I'd probably still do that even with bike lanes on Hennepin. If I'm west of Hennepin (East Calhoun neighborhood), Holmes/Humboldt/Irving all work pretty nice too. I'm not saying "definitely don't put bike lanes on Hennepin", but this is one case where the parallel side streets actually work really well to bring folks between 36th and the Greenway. I normally don't buy those "put bikes on a quiet side street" arguments that anti-bike lane people use, but in this case I really feel that the side streets are an equivalent, if not superior facility, since the "route" is so short.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 21st, 2017, 9:05 am

I'll just point out that Fremont is awful if you want to cross Lake and/or Lagoon. Both have particularly bad sightlines thanks to parked cars and trying to cross 3 lanes of one-way traffic with no signal. I can and do make it work alone, but my wife really really hates it (which is why we go well out of our way to Bryant to get to the Greenway or if we're heading to businesses north of Lagoon on Hennepin). Even crossing 31st on Fremont isn't ideal as there's no stop sign and drivers are doing that thing where repeated stop signs make them slam on the gas between signs. Maybe with that Target opening up they'll put in a light (or at the very least a ped/bike activated signal) at both Lak/Lagoon. But for now, it's not equivalent IMO. I'll grant you that a northbound bike lane that ends at Lake St in doesn't make accessing the Greenway any easier than using Fremont in 2018.

Girard is fine, for the most part. But it's not really designed for bikes if you're coming from the Greenway and heading south - when you hit Lagoon you're forced to weave through a busy ped plaza (which is great! I love that this space is so active!) and bollards and then wait at a light in the wrong-way entrance to a parking ramp. The Calhoun Square block is better, but even then to cross 31st it's really only designed for pedestrians. These can all change, obviously, but it's much simpler to provide a high quality bike connection on the street with the fewest traffic signals, the most businesses, and (what would be in the future with a continued bike lane) the most direct route to Hennepin businesses, the 26th/28th protected facilities, and even downtown.

amiller92
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby amiller92 » March 21st, 2017, 9:24 am

I'm skeptical that it's ever going to make sense to have bike lanes on Hennepin from Lake north to Franklin
It makes sense right now, but it's not going to happen. Which is kind of a shame because that stretch would probably be better to drive with 3 lanes instead of the current 4.

But south of 31st, where the traffic is much lighter, it should be a no-brainer.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby amiller92 » March 21st, 2017, 9:26 am

Personally, I think cars, bikes, buses, trains, and pedestrians can all exist and do exist and I use all of the modes of transportation, including my feet on a regular basis. Again, I was seeking to understand and I'll definitely be more cautious in asking a question in the future. I've been more of a lurker than participant for the past several years and I don't want to incite your need to respond with snark.
When you hear the same things about every proposed bike lane - do we need it, why can't it go elsewhere, what about parking (hey, you didn't mention the elderly and disabled, so that's good) - it's easy to lose patience with those ideas.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby xandrex » March 21st, 2017, 9:49 am

If we’re talking about ways to access the Greenway, it would really make sense to also find a better way to provide direct access between Hennepin and the Greenway. If we add bike lanes, someone trying to access the Greenway is going to need to use one of the side streets that people here have deemed less ideal (either via Lagoon/Humboldt or Lake/Girard). You could also use the Boneyard/Salsa a la Salsa/Game/etc. parking lot to cut over to Girard, but that’s not a long-term solution if someone ever develops that lot into more apartments or an office building. Maybe direct access for bikes to The Mall?

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby thatchio » March 21st, 2017, 9:58 pm

Re: Hennepin access to the Greenway.
The city and community should push very hard to get the Boneyard/Old Chicago parcel, when redeveloped, to finish the promenade. That would create access from the east side of Hennepin. From the west side, you already have the Mall, which connects you down at Humboldt.

Re: Hennepin Ave bike facilities
Once you get past the theoretical arguments of how you talk about bike facilities on Hennepin, I agree with Twincitizen, that this little stretch of Hennepin is probably not as useful as most other bike facilities....unless it later is extended further up north of Lake. My view is mostly that I don't think bike facilities will get that much use, perhaps more if it is fully protected, as the alternatives are more useful and feel a heck more safe. I've lived at 33rd/Dupont, 34th/Hennepin, and 35th/Girard and biked for a non-recreational purpose from all of those locations, so my perspective is largely based upon those experiences. I also used to bike to/from Uptown from Kenny so I often was taking Bryant or Lake Calhoun. For those going in the neighborhood, the one ways are too narrow to allow drivers to pass you in most places, which is nice. You can also bike down the middle to avoid dooring. It's also pretty low traffic, though there are some intersections to watch out for (32nd/Girard as an example). Hennepin from 34th-36th is a hill with the apex at 35th. If you're going to Lake Calhoun to go south from Uptown, it seems like most people go to the path by using 34th or 33rd over to the parkway and then down to the lake at 34th. Those going to places south of 36th seem to go over to Bryant, though some use the sidewalks on Kings Parkway or take Colfax to Lyndale Farmstead and meander through the park to get over to the Rose Gardens and then over to Lake Harriet. If you're west of Hennepin and south of 34th, you'd use a side street to get to your destination as the hill is a barrier. If you're east of Hennepin, I think your route really depends on the block you're going to.

That said, I agree with all the theory and the concept that bikers are going to destinations ON Hennepin so make it safe to bike on Hennepin. I don't think it's a high priority of a fight for me. I think the base concepts presented by the city are already 100x better than what we would have seen a decade ago. It seems like with some tweaking, some of these plans that preserve some parking could work for all users without having to remove all of the parking.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby phop » May 1st, 2017, 7:59 pm

The recommended layout is up:

http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/www/gro ... 198111.pdf

They went with 2A (bike lanes, east side parking) south of 31st and 1A (bike lanes, no on-street parking, raised mid-block crossing) north of 31st. The latter portion is going to feel completely transformed (assuming the city council doesn't pull a 3rd avenue).

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby ukitrain » May 1st, 2017, 8:07 pm

that would be amazing!

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby Anondson » May 1st, 2017, 8:27 pm

I absolutely LOVE how the block from 31st to Lake will turn out.

David Greene
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby David Greene » May 1st, 2017, 8:53 pm

Wow. I love the concept but there's going to be huge pushback. What's the official answer to the forthcoming "parking!" comments?

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nBode
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby nBode » May 1st, 2017, 8:58 pm

Is it necessary to have the bus stops in the bike lane (it might be, I'm not sure)?

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby twincitizen » May 1st, 2017, 9:19 pm

Uhhh...yeah. The bus does have to pull over to the curb to load passengers.
(EDIT: Assuming the absence of "floating bus stops", which Grant shared an image below. They aren't being proposed here, so the bus does have to pull to the curb. Honestly though, it would be a pretty rare event that a stopped bus would actually be blocking a bike in this stretch)

Did anyone else notice there are no bus stops at 35th or 32nd in either direction? Awesome! I wonder how the city got Metro Transit to accept that?

Minor question: would the "restricted parking" on the 3100 block be metered? Because it definitely should be. By removing all parking from the 3000 block, not only is there the lost revenue from those meters, but also the demand for nearby on-street parking. As it stands today, the 3100 block is heavily parked pretty much 24/7. It would be pretty foolish and un-Shoupian to not charge for it. Heck, I bet people would pay to park on the 3200 block if it meant that parking would be available...still only a short 1 block walk to the south end of Calhoun Square.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby grant1simons2 » May 1st, 2017, 9:29 pm

I think what nBode was asking is if we can do something like this for the bus stops

Image

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 2nd, 2017, 8:04 am

There are definitely parking concerns. The final meeting at Bryant Square Park last Thursday night where staff (Simon and Debra) presented this proposal had lots of Concerned Residents in attendance. Typical stuff, this is a winter city, nobody bikes, what about the businesses, what about the elderly, why can't people bike on Bryant, we need more parking not less, faux concern that encouraging biking on an already dangerous road like Hennepin was bad and would kill people ("it'll be on YOU"), etc. It was like a replay of the things I read on facebook pages for the Cleveland Ave bike lanes. What's odd is that ECCO (and many of the people in attendance) didn't take too much issue with the no-parking from Lake-31st part of it. It had more to do with removing just over 50% of the parking from 31st-36th and leaving it all on one side.

I'm sharing this wherever I can, but here is a street that's 65' wide. Hennepin is 66. https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/phot ... april-2017 https://goo.gl/maps/awHj7c3zM9S2

We can have it all (mostly!) if we want. A boulevard space that alternates between trees/ped lighting/benches/bus stop/bike rack space and space for parked cars (and deliveries, and Metro Mobility pickups) on both sides. A protected bikeway I'd actually let me kid ride on by himself (sorry, an unbuffered painted bike lane where buses pull in and cars use as a right turn lane doesn't cut it). We just need some slightly narrower thru lanes, and they'd be allowed without variance if the legislature just adopted the recommendation of that working group.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby mattaudio » May 2nd, 2017, 8:31 am

Generally great, but a few nitpicks about intersections:

-36th St... Wouldn't it make more sense to do some sort of turn lane arrangement for southbound Hennepin onto 36th? Nearly all traffic turns left or right here (Lakewood) and people are really bad about right turning from the car lane across the bike lane.

-36th St... I'd rather see the buses just turn left or right here and stop immediately after on 36th St.

-35th/34th/33rd/32nd... Could we not do slight curb extensions for the side streets as well? Now is the time to do it, since the entire curb radius is being reconstructed. These curb radii will not be reconstructed for another two generations. They're doing it at 31st...

-Lake St... The southbound awkward right lane ending 50 feet after the intersection. It's dangerous and ridiculous. Make the left hand lane at Lake Street into a left turn lane onto eastbound Lake, and problem solved.

David Greene
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby David Greene » May 2nd, 2017, 8:45 am

I agree with all of what Matt said.

I assume there's no chance to get the city to look at RBY's example, but this is exactly the place that sort of thing should happen.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby amiller92 » May 2nd, 2017, 9:22 am

Honestly though, it would be a pretty rare event that a stopped bus would actually be blocking a bike in this stretch)
Not saying it's an unacceptable design, but why would it be rare? I play the fun game of passing a stopped bus, which then passes me so we can do it a again in a few blocks all the time.


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