Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Calhoun-Isles, Cedar-Riverside, Longfellow, Nokomis, Phillips, Powderhorn, and Southwest
fehler
Rice Park
Posts: 444
Joined: July 30th, 2012, 8:33 am

Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby fehler » February 8th, 2013, 10:30 am

Saw a very basic plan for two buildings, one replacing the gas station and the other across 46th replacing the house/Pink Closet, with apartments/ground level retail. The plan does have a mess of surface parking between the buildings and the adjacent lots.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7941
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: 46th Street and Minnehaha Ave

Postby mattaudio » May 24th, 2013, 10:08 am


MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5832
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: 46th Street and Minnehaha Ave

Postby MNdible » May 24th, 2013, 11:52 am

A recommendation for a multi-way boulevard?

Knock me over with a feather.

(This should probably be moved to its own thread in Transportation.)

mplser
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 729
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 11:43 pm
Location: Elliot Park

Re: 46th Street and Minnehaha Ave

Postby mplser » May 24th, 2013, 11:10 pm

not sure I see the multi way proposal you're talking about...

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6208
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: 46th Street and Minnehaha Ave

Postby twincitizen » July 3rd, 2013, 10:03 am

http://finance-commerce.com/2013/07/min ... struction/

Not sure if there's anything new here, but it looks like they took mattaudio's advice on the permalink: http://www.hennepin.us/minnehaha

The county initially planned to start the project in 2014, but it slowed things down a bit to allow more time for public input, Morter said. Public meetings are set for 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. on July 11 and July 17 at Minnehaha Communion Lutheran Church, 4101 37th Ave. S.

After reviewing both options, I'm just not convinced that the 2-way cycletrack is unquestionably better than 6' bike lanes in the street. Then again, I am very comfortable with and used to riding in the street. I just see the 2-way cycletrack as being problematic and potentially dangerous at intersections. If the cycletrack doesn't feel right, won't experienced/fast riders just ride in the street anyways?

In that F&C article, it seems like most business owners are more concerned about the impact of 2 years of construction, rather than the end product. Obviously some are whining about loss of on-street car storage. Heck, one person even didn't like the idea of bumpouts, proving that people will complain about everything if you listen.

With either option, what turns my stomach is that there are sometimes two bus stops on the same block. It literally makes me sick that Metro Transit would insist on having a far-side and near-side stop on the same block to conform to their ridiculously low stop spacing standards. I hope you'll join me in submitting comments opposed to such sillyness.

P.S. This whole thing, with the exception of the OP, should be split off into a new thread in the transportation forum, titled "Minnehaha Avenue"
Last edited by twincitizen on July 3rd, 2013, 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7941
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: 46th Street and Minnehaha Ave

Postby mattaudio » July 3rd, 2013, 10:10 am

Another shameless plug for a mulitway boulevard:
https://streets.mn/2013/05/23/minnehaha-ave/

And the best thing that could happen to end hostility towards cyclists in this neighborhood would be to improve crossings of Hiawatha Ave a few blocks to the west. It's tough trying to cross Hiawatha on bike at 32/35/38/42 Streets.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2702
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: 46th Street and Minnehaha Ave

Postby RailBaronYarr » July 3rd, 2013, 11:17 am

Slightly off-topic, but I get kinda miffed when people take the attitude that bike (or walking, for that matter) infrastructure that we have in the form of dedicated trails (Hiawatha, Cedar Lake, Midtown Greenway, etc) is good enough. Reality is that those trails are good for recreation and biking A to B over long distances where the time savings of getting on to the trail without crossings is worth it even if the trail itself is a bit out of the way. In this case, Minnehaha has the opportunity to be a great local street that serves all modes of transport including walking, biking, transit, and personal vehicles (with ample woonerf zone car storage included!). Allowing people to feel comfortable in making local trips on the bicycle any time of day/year in Minnehaha is certainly important, and the ROW absolutely allows for it.

Seems like Hennepin Cty is still in the design phase having pushed the project out a bit. What are the next steps in public outreach?

PhilmerPhil
Moderator
Posts: 1207
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 11:38 am
Location: SOUP: SOuth UPtown

Re: 46th Street and Minnehaha Ave

Postby PhilmerPhil » July 3rd, 2013, 12:21 pm

Cycle tracks are proven to dramatically increase ridership and are much safer than traditional bike lanes, when designed appropriately. The county's design leaves much to be desired. Its lack of speed tables at low volume intersections and colored and bike-signals at high volume intersections, all crucial elements of a well-designed, safe cycle track, have been left out. Additionally, there is an unnecessarily excessive removal of trees and parking spaces in their design.

A protected bikeway along Minnehaha would connect the trails along the creek to the Midtown Greenway, and would be a start to building a network of bikeways that everyone feels safe riding on. It has the possibility to change the character of the street to something that people go to, rather than through. We all need to make sure this cycle track is designed properly by pushing the county to do more, or hire consultants, as it will be a showcase for what can be done throughout the city.

Here's a SketchUp I made that shows what a cycle track could look like on Minnehaha:
Image

RailBaronYarr, not sure if you saw it, but the next steps in public outreach will be the public meetings this month as shared in twincitizen's post.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2702
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby RailBaronYarr » July 3rd, 2013, 12:53 pm

Good call. Seems like the Mpls Bike Coalition is also hosting meetings to get input to put together ideas for proposal to the county/city.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7941
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby mattaudio » July 3rd, 2013, 1:02 pm

Phil deep down we know you really want a multiway boulevard.

PhilmerPhil
Moderator
Posts: 1207
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 11:38 am
Location: SOUP: SOuth UPtown

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby PhilmerPhil » July 3rd, 2013, 1:15 pm

RailBaronYarr wrote:Good call. Seems like the Mpls Bike Coalition is also hosting meetings to get input to put together ideas for proposal to the county/city.
The coalition and its partners regularly discuss strategies for a Minnehaha cycle track at their Bikeways for Everyone work group meetings, held on the third Monday of each month at 6:30pm at Bryant Square Park. Feel free to show up if you are interested in getting a proper cycle track on Minnehaha, in addition to a network of protected bikeways throughout the rest of the city.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6208
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby twincitizen » July 3rd, 2013, 2:59 pm

I don't mean to be all anti-change-y, but something about that image just doesn't sit right with me. I'd rather be in a 5-6 foot bike line (preferably buffered) on the street where cars can see me and I can signal my intentions to turn, etc. Is there a single example of a cycle track like this in the Twin Cities that I could try? That image just makes me deathly afraid of getting hit by a turning car. I don't want to slow down and look both ways at every intersection, when I have the right-of-way as through traffic. Like I said earlier, I predict that fast-moving, experienced bikers would just end up biking in the street where they feel more comfortable/visible, and that would just piss everyone off. I'm not convinced that this alternative is unequivocally better than bike lanes.

seanrichardryan
Capella Tower
Posts: 3940
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul
Contact:

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby seanrichardryan » July 3rd, 2013, 3:18 pm

What about the death track on Lyndale & Groveland by Hennepin Methodist? It's horrible for cars, bikes and peds all at the same time!
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6208
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby twincitizen » July 3rd, 2013, 6:17 pm

LOL, truth! I ride that all the time. It never even occurred to me that it's technically a (really awful) cycletrack, but I guess it is. But that's kind of a different situation than Minnehaha. That short stretch of cycletrack along Lyndale/Hennepin has relatively few intersections with turning traffic and you know damn well to look out for cars, even when you have the green, just because it is so hostile.

blobs
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 164
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 2:22 pm

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby blobs » July 5th, 2013, 9:40 am

twincitizen wrote:I don't mean to be all anti-change-y, but something about that image just doesn't sit right with me. I'd rather be in a 5-6 foot bike line (preferably buffered) on the street where cars can see me and I can signal my intentions to turn, etc. Is there a single example of a cycle track like this in the Twin Cities that I could try? That image just makes me deathly afraid of getting hit by a turning car. I don't want to slow down and look both ways at every intersection, when I have the right-of-way as through traffic. Like I said earlier, I predict that fast-moving, experienced bikers would just end up biking in the street where they feel more comfortable/visible, and that would just piss everyone off. I'm not convinced that this alternative is unequivocally better than bike lanes.
I am wondering the same thing! If I'm a cycling on the track how am I going to make a right turn?

PhilmerPhil
Moderator
Posts: 1207
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 11:38 am
Location: SOUP: SOuth UPtown

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby PhilmerPhil » July 5th, 2013, 1:54 pm

I will admit that I, too, am slightly skeptical of a 2-way cycle track, and unfortunately, I don't know of any that currently exist in the Twin Cities. Parkways are probably the closest thing, but they don't have the intersection frequency and aren't really designed with transportation cycling in mind. I have yet to check out the new one at the U of M, and am curious to see how that one handles intersections. There are some unanswered questions I have myself. Two seperate one-way cycle tracks are usually much better, but bring up issues with snow removal (the county would be able to easily plow a two-way with existing equipment) and some of the complex intersections along the east side of Minnehaha.

However, the number one thing we can do to improve bike safety is getting more people on bikes. Cycle tracks are proven to increase ridership by not only being safer, but having a perception of safety, which attracts a whole new audience to cycling. Additionally, the county really needs to plan this cycle track as a serious infrastructure project, not just an afterthought as their current design suggests. There needs to be a high level of design including clear signage, raised intersections, bike stoplights, bright paint, etc. for this to really work. I can't stress enough how important it is that this is designed properly, as it will set the stage for any future cycle tracks in the city. We need it to be a success if we want more of them.

blobs
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 164
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 2:22 pm

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby blobs » July 5th, 2013, 10:06 pm

After reading this http://nctcog.org/trans/committees/bpac ... .17.10.pdf (somebody posted in another thread), I see how a cycle track would work.

PhilmerPhil
Moderator
Posts: 1207
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 11:38 am
Location: SOUP: SOuth UPtown

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby PhilmerPhil » July 5th, 2013, 10:54 pm

I'm glad that link gave you a better understanding, blobs. With the black diamond of a bikeway along Hennepin/Lyndale approaching Loring Park, the failure that is the "cycle track" on 1st Ave N*, and our multi use-paths in the suburbs, high-quality, separated, on street bike infrastructure that invites regular people to use bikes to get around town is a mostly unfamiliar concept in Minneapolis. We need to take the success of our trail system and apply it to our city streets to create network of Bikeways for Everyone**!

*Some improvements have been made to 1st Ave N, like widening of the buffers, to the point where I actually quite like riding on it. If they extend the pilot project of the candlestick bollards to the rest of the street, and perhaps add some bike boxes and painted intersections, I'd say it'd be near perfect.
**shameless plug

talindsay
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1560
Joined: September 29th, 2012, 10:41 am

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby talindsay » July 8th, 2013, 11:25 am

Living right on the River Road, I've come to the opinion that a significant portion of Twin Cities cyclists believe it's their duty to prove their "right" to be in the street even when a good separated amenity exists. Building what's essentially a bike trail (call it a cycle track, same thing) next to the car portion of the roadway makes an awful lot of sense, but how many cyclists will use the street instead? How do you make it wide enough, smooth enough, and have easy enough (and safe enough) intersections with cross streets (and turning cars from their streets) to make it desirable over the street, especially given that cars will actually see you in the street but certainly won't if you're on this cycle track?

VAStationDude
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 782
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:30 am

Re: Minnehaha Ave - Longfellow Area

Postby VAStationDude » July 8th, 2013, 12:02 pm

First, people ride on River Road because it is a far safer place for commuter/road cyclists than the path. Runners, dog walkers and families on their bikes, don't mix with 15mph bikers. I94 to downtown/Cedar Ave, the neighborhood grid and Hiawatha are available to St Paul and Longfellow auto commuters to the U or downtown. You've hit on why I'm a little skeptical of cycle tracks. Visibility in my opinion is much preferable to physical separation which is why I really dislike sidepaths with a bunch of curb cuts and prefer the street. After looking at Hennepin County's renderings for the first time, I would prefer the bike lane option but really do not like how it hugs the curb and jogs to the right to accomodate left turn lanes. I'd prefer right turn lanes, straight bike lanes and conflict striping instead of the proposed setup.


Return to “Minneapolis - South, Southwest, and Uptown”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest