29th Street Reconstruction Project

[Wedgeguy]

Woonerfs do not have to forbid parking.

I still don't see where you articulate what would be a negative if it were done, other than your belief parking would be eliminated.

Which leads me to think there is a speaking past each other about not the same thing. A woonerf identical to the one by Calhoun Square would bad, but there's many better possibilities to fit the context of 29th, imo.

I still don't understand who, and how many people are to benefit from this extra expense. Are people from all over the city going to come to walk on this woonerf? A lot of extra expense for a street few will benefit from. There are several street in MPLS that could use those dollars to upgrade their appearance so that the businesses and people that number far more that would benefit from a better street scape. Why should this little pedestrian traveled street be an experiment that will benefit a very few. No one has given be a real reason other than it would be cool and European.

Our problem is you look at it as what if, and I see it as this is, because it is a big part of my daily life and I see the true nature of the neighborhood.

[PhilmerPhil]

Wedgeguy how are you going to feel if/when 29th street is reconstructed and the street suddenly becomes a beautiful space that attracts pedestrians and programming (like farmers markets)?

[Wedgeguy]

I'd ask my city council person why we are wasting tax payer dollars. As far as I'm concerned, a few trees a boulavard with grass,A freshly paved street will hold a farmers market as well as a woonerf. We have a nice park, with a small community center, why is a farmers market now held there? Why did the last farmers market fizzle out? I've hear one of the reasons, what do you know about the last farmers market that died next to where Marche is now. I ask because no one can give me a real concrete answer as to why this is needed, other than it would be cool. Who is it going to help? People in the north half of my neighborhood despises the over built south end, so I don't think you will be getting a lot of them. I don't see that many millennials at the Lyndale farmers market. Not sure they even know what real farm grown veggies are.

There are areas in this city that really need improvements. This would be taking that money away from those that truly could use it to better their community. Again why is this such a big deal. The Girard woonerf not living up to the claims that it was going to bring. One section where the Parking ramp is flourishes. You need people leaving their cars to get it walkable. The section by the Walkway is really a joke. One of the businesses is now close until spring. 3 other retail spaces are still empty in the red hot uptown retail market. I've watch one experiment fizzle and now you want to try another that will have even less chances for pedestrian traffic.

Woonerf would be great in an area like NE MPLS that has great stub streets where there are breweries , art galleries, old warehouses, that you can create an exciting area all around it. 29th is a trench on one side, and a lot of fences, parking lots, and blank walls. You can put lips stick on a pig, but it still would be a pig. In the 30 years I've seen the city waste a s**t load of money on sure bets that never brought the people. Riverplace, St. Anthony Main were an experiment festival retail that cost some Banks, hundred million in loses. Businesses have tried to come and usually end up gone. Now 25 years later we finally have the critical mass of residents. But now the whole Old St Anthony business district is thriving and I can only hope that the retail space on Riverplace get filled again and we have pedestrian traffic.
That is why I look at this with such low regard, I've seen too many sure bet experiments that flopped because the people did not come, or change their current habits to include said project. More or less " You can lead a horse to water , but you can't make it drink." You can build a very pretty place, but if it is not convenient to peoples every day lives. they will not use it.

[EOst]

This has been easily the least informed or thoughtful conversation I've read here. Bravo!

Could a newly paved street with boulevards make a decent pedestrian experience? Sure, I guess. Will this be a better pedestrian experience? Almost certainly. Will this cost any more than a normal reconstruction would? According to Lisa Bender, nope! So why are we arguing about this? Having a nice pedestrian-oriented street between the promenade and pedestrian-unfriendly (if destination-rich) Lake Street isn't a bad thing, and it isn't redundant.

[Anondson]

But we're hearing the cold hard facts that this street isn't desirable to be so we shouldn't try to do anything nicer, ...

I dunno, the conversation is much like what I hear in the suburbs with street reconstruction projects. "But no one walks along this road, so we don't need the wasteful frill of sidewalks. Go spend that money on fixing more roads. And don't make this road narrower, it'll slow me and emergency responses." I found it useful for seeing that similarity.

[thatchio]

Bell Street in Seattle's Belltown is sometimes held up as a woonerf. While it has no curbs, it does use planters to delineate driving area and sidewalks. While it is a very pleasant street to walk or bike, it has a lot of traffic and I've never seen people walking in the road section.

29th is a sorry piece of street right now that walking, biking, or driving on sucks. Given that the promenade isn't intended for bikes and doesn't have curb cuts, I do think there will be an increase in pedestrian/bike use once the reconstruction is complete. It is used by a fair amount of cars and I don't see that really going down once it has fewer pot holes. Hopefully the design leads to reduced speeds and a better experience for all users.

Are there better candidates for Woonerfs in Minneapolis? Absolutely yes! But 29th has been in a bad shape for a long time and has been in budgets to be replaced at different times. As redevelopment continues over time between Fremont and Bryant, it will become a more integrated environment.

[MNdible]

Lest my underlying opinion get lost in the kerfuffle...

I started this whole conversation off by saying that the proposed design seems like a good compromise and would be a real improvement over the existing conditions. My follow-up comments were in response to a group of people who were bitching that the proposed design wasn't woonerfy enough for their tastes.

[Wedgeguy]

I have no problem with adding trees, setback parking with knockouts, If the building owners want to plant flowers on the boulevard that is great. The boulevards on my street are filled with flowers at the home owners discretion. For the city to build planters boxes that will not be maintained is a waste. A simple street that can be closed off it fine. You have the knockouts, the 4 way stops that slow the little amount of car traffic there is. Which is 10 times the amount of the pedestrian traffic.

So adding trees to the boulevards is good, they have already been added on the Lyndale to Bryant blocks. Nice sidewalks are fine, they are already in place where we have our newest buildings. Other than the road bed and the decorative fence to the trench, everything we need is there.They could add those old fashion decorative lights along the street. As I'll repeat for the 8th time. The only real pedestrians are dogs that shit on the boulevard with their walkers and people who park on 29th so that they can walk half a block and then turn down one of the avenues to get to lake street. To go way beyond those added features is a waste. This is not a street that people in the neighborhood will stroll along. Find it hard to believe that many of you have ever spent time walking along/thru this area. No one has made any attempt to justify the cost for a little used street. There is a very big price difference between upgrading the street and creating some European paradise. That is my point and no one has give me any logical answered that have any real facts to back them up.

No need for me to repeat myself anymore, I've stated the facts as they are enough now. No one has done anything to dispute what I've said. No one has said what features are a must for this European experience. It is not that I don't want this street upgraded, but there is a point what we seem to get foolish with what we want. Yet no one has said what it is they want, except for a European experience which in my mind is a BIG waste for this street.

[Nick]

Wedgeguy '12

[David Greene]

The 29th street corridor is very high-pedestrian. Tons of people walk the promenade. The only reason that they're not on 29th itself is that there is no sidewalk for much of it. Most of the folks on the promenade are coming from/heading to points south.

A woonerf with some kind of marketplace would do really well, especially once Cub gets redeveloped.

We should do it to plan for the future and because this is the easiest place to do it in the whole city. It's not even a properly-constructed paved road currently so there's no real impact to auto traffic.

[Wedgeguy]

David you reenforced my standing, the Promenade gets the pedestrian traffic not 29th. All that need to be done is to rebuild the road bed, get some curbing, plant a few tree where it is allowed, and continues the nice sidewalks that are already there between Lyndale and Bryant.

I'll disagree with you on the tons of people that will come to a farmers market, last one died due to apathy and farmers not getting a real financial reward for taking their time to be there. But it can be tried, maybe the restaurant crowd will be drawn to the farmers market. But when you have a fully stocked grocery store so close, a once a week market that will not be starting until probably the end of June due to crops have to mature to be sold. But once a week closer of the street that will not cause gridlock would be OK with me.

[David Greene]

I still don't understand who, and how many people are to benefit from this extra expense.

Is there an extra expense? What's the cost of a woonerf here compared to what's currently planned? Curbs cost money, right?

[David Greene]

The Girard woonerf not living up to the claims that it was going to bring. One section where the Parking ramp is flourishes. You need people leaving their cars to get it walkable. The section by the Walkway is really a joke.

Except the portion by Walkway is not a woonerf at all. It's a street with some wider sidewalks. The portion by the parking ramp is also not a woonerf.

The plaza by Mozaic is VERY successful. Also not a woonerf but it shows the potential of pedestrian-oriented places.

Would a 29th street woonerf be a gigantic pedestrian festinval when it opens? No, for many of the reasons you cite. But I for one would like to see something that looks toward the future. Cub, PP and ACME are all going to get redeveloped at some point. More residents are going to be living on the south side of 29th.

no one can give me a real concrete answer as to why this is needed, other than it would be cool

Just want to note that "because it's cool" can in fact be a legitimate reason to do something. We do not need to boil everything down to numbers.

[David Greene]

David you reenforced my standing, the Promenade gets the pedestrian traffic not 29th.

Because there is literally no place to walk for much of 29th. No, not all the ped traffic will shift over but some will. And it will grow as the south side of 29th continues to be redeveloped.

I'll disagree with you on the tons of people that will come to a farmers market

I specifically did not say, "farmer's market." There are many other kinds of markets that could be successful.

You're a resident with one experience and opinion and I respect that. I'm a resident with another experience and opinion. Neither one of us can claim to speak for all residents.

As for reasons to do this, one is that we should do it to show that it can be done. There's a ton of value in doing a new thing as a demonstration so that same new thing can be repeated across the city with less heartache. There's value is pedestrian-oriented spaces. I see a woonerf here as a small shift in culture that could reverberate far beyond the Wedge.

[mplsjaromir]

Expanding the infrastructure of the most destination rich pedestrian area in a 400 mile radius makes a ton sense. I do not believe people are so rigid that they won't walk one block to take advantage. This is a safe move for the city.

Its ironic how some try to frame a Woonerf here some sort of risky radical urbanist pipe dream that could only appeal to Dutchophiles. At the same time believing a sober and serious plan is the city giving away millions to facilitate a soccer stadium hoping the result will be a thriving new urban residential and entertainment district. Improve our already thriving urban residential and entertainment district.

[anders]

Its ironic how some try to frame a Woonerf here some sort of risky radical urbanist pipe dream that could only appeal to Dutchophiles.

That's right. The idea of a shared multimodal space that emphasizes comfort and safety for pedestrians and bicycle users is not really novel, and the Netherlands is definitely not the only place that does this. I've never understood the insistence on using the Dutch word anyway (I like the German "Spielstrasse" more -- play street). These exist across Europe and surely in other parts of the world (even more so before motorization rates pick up, I'm sure). Let's treat this as what it is: a common sense and equally affordable way of emphasizing neighborhood livability over through traffic suitable for many (not all, but many!) areas of the city.

[Wedgeguy]

The non motorized is in the greenway trench, the pedestrian promenade is on the north side of the trench. You all like the idea more than the practicality of it. A simple nicely designed street will suffice just fine.

[RailBaronYarr]

I'd say the proposed design is a simple, nicely designed street. As far as any of us are aware it costs no more than a curbed asphalt one. There's really nothing more to say than that.

[MNdible]

Word.

(I just like to celebrate these little moments when I agree with y'all.)

[anders]

A simple nicely designed street will suffice just fine.

Fortunately, that's exactly what we are getting.