Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby twincitizen » March 7th, 2020, 1:06 pm

One thing that occurred to me the other day is that the existing bridge over the greenway (back of Kmart) is like 100 years old, and perhaps has not been maintained & repaired like many of the others have, because it hasn’t been in use for nearly 50 years. At bare minimum, it needs a deck resurfacing, if not a full rehab or total replacement. If the city tears down the store relatively soon, a bike/ped-way could be opened while development plans are being formulated. That’s assuming the city doesn’t fence off the entire site in the interim. It could be years before cars can use Nicollet through the site, even if that’s what the community & policymakers choose.

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby Minnehahaha » March 7th, 2020, 6:32 pm

On the flip side, it has avoided half a century of traffic load and road salt, so it might not need much attention beyond the deck. Regardless, I am thrilled and shocked that we can actually be having these discussions after all these years!

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby Silophant » March 8th, 2020, 12:07 am

I mean, we don't have to imagine the congestion on Blaisdell and 1st. It would be the same as it is now, but without buses or bikes. Tbh, we can even take those bike lanes out if it would let the cars zoom more happily.

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby amiller92 » March 9th, 2020, 9:04 am

Nathan wrote:
March 7th, 2020, 11:34 am
I don't think it's a great idea to close the street to automobiles. I'm a big fan of having as many open free streets for all modes as possible. I'm trying to imagine the congestion on blaisdell and 1st, and overly convoluted routes around the area if this would be. It would be a disservice to pedestrians and bicyclists on those streets. If this area is developed as dense as we're all hoping it will be, that would put so much pressure on the outskirts. I say keep everything south of 29th to 31st as a 2 or 3 lane very calmed small town feeling street for local traffic and continue to encourage through traffic to use the 1st and blaisdell one ways.

Also imagine telling the general public that the street is reopening after 50 years, and the city spent 10s of millions on it and then they can't drive it... there will be a lot of opposition, probably enough to make it not plausible.

We have better ways of calming streets and controlling traffic than being all like CAR BAD NO CAR.
I personally think there's no chance that it doesn't get re-opened to cars, but that doesn't mean shouldn't advocate for the city to do the right thing, which is to not add car infrastructure in the world of climate collapse.

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby Blaisdell Greenway » March 9th, 2020, 9:53 am

The Nicollet bridge is deficient will need to be replaced. It was on a CLIC agenda in 2015 to be replaced in 2020... dunno the budget status as of now.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=150&p=90544&hilit=clic#p90533

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby Nathan » March 9th, 2020, 10:50 am

amiller92 wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 9:04 am
Nathan wrote:
March 7th, 2020, 11:34 am
I don't think it's a great idea to close the street to automobiles. I'm a big fan of having as many open free streets for all modes as possible. I'm trying to imagine the congestion on blaisdell and 1st, and overly convoluted routes around the area if this would be. It would be a disservice to pedestrians and bicyclists on those streets. If this area is developed as dense as we're all hoping it will be, that would put so much pressure on the outskirts. I say keep everything south of 29th to 31st as a 2 or 3 lane very calmed small town feeling street for local traffic and continue to encourage through traffic to use the 1st and blaisdell one ways.

Also imagine telling the general public that the street is reopening after 50 years, and the city spent 10s of millions on it and then they can't drive it... there will be a lot of opposition, probably enough to make it not plausible.

We have better ways of calming streets and controlling traffic than being all like CAR BAD NO CAR.
I personally think there's no chance that it doesn't get re-opened to cars, but that doesn't mean shouldn't advocate for the city to do the right thing, which is to not add car infrastructure in the world of climate collapse.
The right thing for the climate? In this situation is this saving the world? Potentially making local traffic drive half a mile around their destination for a 1 block calmed pedestrian area? That's so much more idling and distance per trip for hopefully hundres of future residential and destination that can have much more direct and less congested route. Climate harm reduction is a lot more nuanced than sweeping urbanist fan boy generalizations. Do we need to expand interstates into the exurbs... no. Is adding a calmed direct route to hundreds of new residents and retail spots causing more people to get into their car or just allowing a more carbon efficient way for people to complete their trip, regardless of transit mode?

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby twincitizen » March 9th, 2020, 11:17 am

Nathan wrote:Climate harm reduction is a lot more nuanced than sweeping urbanist fan boy generalizations.
Agreed 100%
Nathan wrote:Is adding a calmed direct route to hundreds of new residents and retail spots causing more people to get into their car or just allowing a more carbon efficient way for people to complete their trip, regardless of transit mode?
This question is exactly why the city needs to study the alternatives, rather than settling on any predetermined outcome. I won't be mad if the city ultimately does or does not open this block of Nicollet to cars. I will be mad if it isn't given a thorough study.

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby amiller92 » March 9th, 2020, 12:53 pm

Nathan wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 10:50 am
Potentially making local traffic drive half a mile around their destination for a 1 block calmed pedestrian area?
Who said one block? I'm eyeing at least 28th to Lake.

But who are "people?" Because there are people on buses (eventually streetcar?), bikes and foot too. Especially local traffic.

But it's not the local trips that are the issue. It's the new through trips.

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby Nathan » March 9th, 2020, 1:05 pm

amiller92 wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 12:53 pm
Nathan wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 10:50 am
Potentially making local traffic drive half a mile around their destination for a 1 block calmed pedestrian area?
Who said one block? I'm eyeing at least 28th to Lake.

But who are "people?" Because there are people on buses (eventually streetcar?), bikes and foot too. Especially local traffic.

But it's not the local trips that are the issue. It's the new through trips.
Local trips are 100 percent what need to be thought about. Through and commuter traffic has already been avoiding this area using blaisdell and 1st for decades. They aren't suddenly going to start using nicollet if it's not convenient. Ie a very calmed street.

However if this becomes a dense, high use area it will attract business that require trucks, and residents who will also have cars... it's not just going away because there isn't a street. That means more concentration of that increased traffic on blaisdell and 1st if nicollet isn't there to absorb some. More left turns, more idling, and those streets are in existing neighborhoods, those residents don't deserve to incur the negative outcomes as well. You're not really convincing me this is for "the environment"

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby amiller92 » March 9th, 2020, 1:16 pm

It seems you have more faith than me that the city can successfully achieve a very calmed street in a place where people will want to drive through, but a very calmed street (in the neighborhood of a woonerf) would be fine with me too.

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby Nathan » March 9th, 2020, 1:29 pm

Yeah there's definitely a lot of work to be done in ensuring it's not a car funnel. I would suggest 28th to 32nd be vastly calmed and made into a semi self sufficient little urban node of its own. The area se of this is a major car playground.

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby seanrichardryan » March 9th, 2020, 9:24 pm

Any new bridge should incorporate an improved greenway connection.
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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby twincitizen » March 10th, 2020, 12:01 pm

I'd go even further - there should be a comprehensive redesign of how the Greenway interacts with Nicollet/Blaisdell/1st. The nearest entrance to here is way over at Bryant Ave (not including stairs at Lyndale/Murals and the gardens at Harriet Ave). The current ramp setup creates one of the tightest pinch-points on the entire Greenway, and that should be improved as well. One option could be a westbound ramp at Blaisdell and eastbound ramp at 1st. Or dual ramps at both Blaisdell and 1st (both streets get dual-ramps like Bryant).

While Nicollet reopening will certainly make it a more attractive cycling route, Blaisdell and 1st are the bikeways (and are being improved with more protection, etc.) The status of Blaisdell and 1st as the major bikeways won't change just because Nicollet is unblocked.

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby SurlyLHT » March 10th, 2020, 2:15 pm

It would be nice if new development cut into the wall of the Greenway and connected the Greenway to Lake/Nicollet

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby Rube Dali » June 2nd, 2020, 9:56 am

Has anyone been up at KMart recently to see how they fared after the looting?
Buildings, what buildings?

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby Bob Stinson's Ghost » June 2nd, 2020, 1:54 pm

No visible damage to K-mart when viewed from Lake Street.

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby amiller92 » June 2nd, 2020, 2:05 pm

Yeah, I was over there yesterday and a little surprised it looked untouched.

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby EOst » June 3rd, 2020, 8:33 am


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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby Anondson » June 3rd, 2020, 8:49 am

That’s dark humor. I’m here for it.

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Re: Lake & Nicollet Redevelopment (Kmart site)

Postby MattW » June 3rd, 2020, 12:15 pm

EOst wrote:
June 3rd, 2020, 8:33 am
I made this very joke to a group of friends. In response, I was blasted by one friend, who is a person of color, about how his family relied on this Kmart for affordable goods when he was growing up.

The city will need to be very, very intentional about the type of retail that will go into this space.


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