Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

[Nick]

Someone Twittered this earlier today.

[LyndaleHoosier]

I disagree with the first bullet point. The difference in height due to the hill between Lyndale and Aldrich probably counts as 2 stories, so I don't think a six story building is really out of place. I understand if the developer was proposing 10+, but I think there is enough precedent in the surrounding neighborhood (condos further east on Franklin, etc.) to warrant six stories.

[Anondson]

So much to dispute or nit pick or snark at in the bullets.

I don't understand the second to last bullet. Paid-parking that exceeds needs will cause over flow into neighborhoods free parking?

[Nathan]

I'm so Mad I'm in Arizona for this :/

[RailBaronYarr]

So much to dispute or nit pick or snark at in the bullets.

I don't understand the second to last bullet. Paid-parking that exceeds needs will cause over flow into neighborhoods free parking?

I think this just shows how people will twist any parking issue into "no more on-street spaces for YOU, homeowner." Originally, it was that developers wouldn't provide enough off-street spaces and people would just park on the street. Now it's.. to much, but they'll charge, so people won't use the over-supplied, over-priced parking and just use the free supply on the streets? We can debate the merits of this, but in reality, Lyn-Franklin needs a district parking solution. I'd say a 2 block buffer to the E and W of Lyndale (from 94 down to 31st St even) could use parking meters. But that's just me, I guess.

[twincitizen]

They came back to the Whittier Alliance meeting last night. Some fairly significant changes have been made. The rear setback is now 6' from the property line instead of the previous 3'. The rooftop "park" is gone, and therefore so is the lid on the top level of parking. This results in a much less imposing wall on the properties to the west. Obviously the blank wall is still there, but not much can be done about that. Gerberding says that Lisa Bender engaged Hennepin County on the issue of the "taper" of Lyndale Avenue at this site and that will be filled in with a regular squared off curb. This will create a shorter/safer pedestrian crossing distance across Lyndale and add some entry/patio space for the corner restaurant tenant, which may or may not be Rudolph's. The Rudolph's logo has been removed and replaced with "Restaurant".

The reception by Whittier neighbors was far different than what we saw in Lowry Hill East last month. No accusations or insults to the developer. Not even a hint of attitude or emotionally-charged questioning. People asked about the retail spaces, how many tenant spaces there would be, local vs. national chain, etc. Overall it was really positive and it sounds like Master is responding to people's concerns.

Another "concession" they seem to have made to neighbors is they have re-bundled parking expenses with rent to appease the few fools who think parking will spill into the neighborhoods if people have to pay for car storage. It's probably not too late to convince Master to go the other way on this. I imagine they could just change this in the future and de-bundle parking costs from rent, but really what's the point of him going around telling people they're going to bundle it because a small minority complained?

They come before LHENA (The Wedge) one last time Wednesday, March 13. If you are supportive of this development, please attend the meeting at 6:30 at Jefferson Elementary. Overall, I think it looks great. I'm still not seeing that signature corner element that this project really needs, but I'm still really excited about it. This is going to bring that corner to life and hopefully spur redevelopment on the other corners as well.

[twincitizen]

Bump. If you are supportive of this development, please attend the meeting TONIGHT at 6:30 at Jefferson Elementary.
This will likely be the final neighborhood meeting before this goes to the Planning Commission, so positive/supportive comments and critiques are critical.

My personal concerns are:
1. I hate that the developer caved to neighbors and said they will bundle parking costs with the rental charge. This is a really unnecessary concession. All new apartments with structured parking charge separately for car storage. We are finally moving away from bundling that cost, and this development should continue that trend.

2. I'm still looking for a signature architectural element at the corner of Lyndale & Franklin. Signage, a marquee, unique lighting...something to make this intersection pop and bring Lyndale back to life as you emerge from the bottleneck.

I can't make it tonight, but I hope several of you can. We had 9 forum members at the last one.

[Wedgeguy]

Well the citizen of Mayberry showed little sign that they want anything over 4 stories built. They want parking, but they don't want the parking near them. They want their view to be able to see the skyline. Frankly they think if they hold out a better smaller building will be built. But as we know with land cost, development cost, engineering cost, building cost, the longer you wait the more it will cost and more dense the project will have to be. They want more studies to tell them what they don't want to hear. Our own Spdchetta suggested that we have a study to see the impact of a possible asteroid would have on this project. It made as much sense as a few other suggestion. They think they know their neighborhood, but still think that it is economically possible to dig into an old lake bed for underground parking. I pointed out the mess that they have at 1800 Lake with ground water that they pump into the lake. Where would they pump this ground water to keep it dry. For those that attended, it was a sorry meeting with everyone with their Mayberry blinders on.
But there will be more meetings that cover the SOS as people think they can find a way to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

[lordmoke]

Thanks for going! I opted out, because I couldn't sit through all that again. I'll save my energy for when this actually goes before a voting body. Does the revised building plan look much different from the original proposal?

[Wedgeguy]

The front pretty much looks similar with a move or the driveway to the garage a bit closer to the retail building to the south. The roof top deck is gone, now there is a setback for a community room and a narrow deck for the top floor balconies on the west side that are set back along way. The wall for the parking deck follows the ramps up so there is no straight wall anymore. The building has increased its setback from the back property line a few more feet.

[aeisenberg]

Well the citizen of Mayberry showed little sign that they want anything over 4 stories built. They want parking, but they don't want the parking near them. They want their view to be able to see the skyline. Frankly they think if they hold out a better smaller building will be built. But as we know with land cost, development cost, engineering cost, building cost, the longer you wait the more it will cost and more dense the project will have to be. They want more studies to tell them what they don't want to hear. Our own Spdchetta suggested that we have a study to see the impact of a possible asteroid would have on this project. It made as much sense as a few other suggestion. They think they know their neighborhood, but still think that it is economically possible to dig into an old lake bed for underground parking. I pointed out the mess that they have at 1800 Lake with ground water that they pump into the lake. Where would they pump this ground water to keep it dry. For those that attended, it was a sorry meeting with everyone with their Mayberry blinders on.
But there will be more meetings that cover the SOS as people think they can find a way to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

Spdcheetah. Get it? Imagine you were 12 in 1997. It's a super cool handle.

What I asked was whether this building would protect the neighborhood from an asteroid. Because that's how ridiculous the questions from opponents were. I wanted to take the high road, but I was just losing it. Every comment/question from the neighbors was less sensical than the last. It was blood-boiling. Halliburton would have had an easier time pitching an oil rig on this site to these people. The sense of entitlement, the hatred of density ("THIS IS NOT NEW YORK!") and the mindless vilification of the developer was amazing/horrifying.

[johneapolis]

1. I hate that the developer caved to neighbors and said they will bundle parking costs with the rental charge. This is a really unnecessary concession. All new apartments with structured parking charge separately for car storage. We are finally moving away from bundling that cost, and this development should continue that trend.

I got the impression from the developer that parking was technically going to be bundled with rent to appease some concerns. But they also said that people who don't own vehicles would be eligible for a rent rebate or transit passes. Doesn't this amount to effectively unbundling parking from rent?

So it sounds like the bundling talk was just double-speak to get people off their backs. I was pleasantly surprised on that topic.

This is my first post here. First LHENA meeting attended. I posted some further thoughts from the meeting on twitter, linked in my signature.

[WestCoastDude]

I brought up the fact that the whole area would best be served if there was a comprehensive vision for the Lyndale-Franklin intersection, and what it should look like. Lyndale and Franklin is a crossroads of several neighborhoods and serves as a gateway from Downtown to the more residential Wedge/Whittier/Uptown area. It truly is a unique opportunity to do things right. Otherwise there will be piecemeal development without any coordination.

[aeisenberg]

I brought up the fact that the whole area would best be served if there was a comprehensive vision for the Lyndale-Franklin intersection, and what it should look like. Lyndale and Franklin is a crossroads of several neighborhoods and serves as a gateway from Downtown to the more residential Wedge/Whittier/Uptown area. It truly is a unique opportunity to do things right. Otherwise there will be piecemeal development without any coordination.

That was one of the most productive comments at the meeting, thanks for bringing it up.

[David Greene]

What I asked was whether this building would protect the neighborhood from an asteroid. Because that's how ridiculous the questions from opponents were. I wanted to take the high road, but I was just losing it.

Well, I'm glad UrbanMSP brought an adult conversation to the meeting.

[woofner]

Glad to see you're upholding your reputation for prudishness, David. Were you aware that sarcasm was invented by an adult named Edmund Spenser in the year 1579? That was almost 500 years ago! Wow! Do you think it will need another 500 years before it's an accepted rhetorical technique?

[David Greene]

Glad to see you're upholding your reputation for prudishness, David. Were you aware that sarcasm was invented by an adult named Edmund Spenser in the year 1579? That was almost 500 years ago! Wow! Do you think it will need another 500 years before it's an accepted rhetorical technique?

?? spdcheetah himself indicated he took the low road.

If your goal is to convince someone, it's generally not a good idea to make fun of them or call them stupid. If your goal is to influence the decision of a third party, it's not really helpful to try to make your opponent out to be stupid and generally make fun of them. Make your arguments based on the merit of the issue at hand.

EDIT: People here complain about nonsensical arguments of others all the time. Doesn't it make sense to take a step back and ask ourselves if we aren't doing the same.

Sarcasm has little place in debate. Satire can have a place but it must be used judiciously.

[mattaudio]

Since the neighborhood org does not appear to respond to reason, the best bet is to make sure folks up the decision chain realize how ridiculous their arguments are. Well done, spdcheetah.

[Wedgeguy]

Without being there David, you don't know what was said and the attitude of those that said what they did. There was a few that had substance, but too many were substituting the word we, for what should have been ME. I want, I think, I feel when it was not every ones opinion. As one lady said, "We don't want anymore people in the neighborhood. They can find someplace else to live in the city!" So the mind set is let them be someone else's issue. These people live in the dark ages when flight to the suburbs was king. Now it is the opposite.

[woofner]

Thanks Matt, you put it well. I also congratulate spdcheetah on having the courage, in public, to point out that others are being unproductive in a conversation. Often we confuse public input mechanisms with group therapy sessions; they exist for members of the public to provide input on the public policy implications of a specific proposal, not as a way to vent your feelings on that proposal.

David because you're being obstinate as ever, I'm going to point out that satire is a genre of artifact that often prominently uses sarcasm, not a rhetorical technique in itself. Just because you don't like sarcasm in debate doesn't mean that other people can't use it effectively.

So was there any action taken at the LHENA meeting or is this still bogged down in neighborhood review?