Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

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mplser
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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby mplser » August 15th, 2016, 7:05 pm

I wish the balcony walls were a darker color on the corner (perhaps the same red as elsewhere on the project) to emphasize the weirdly shaped facade in front of the balconies, but overall not too bad... so glad the NIMBYs didn't kill it!!

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby aeisenberg » August 15th, 2016, 9:15 pm

They will lose value. The neighborhood may be going up in general, but these owners (shareholders, in the case of 2007 Aldrich) will absolutely take a hit on the value of their specific units. Could the affected buildings and the developer appraise, arbitrate, and settle on the value lost?
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Anondson
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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby Anondson » August 15th, 2016, 9:21 pm

When a golf course is closed and developed, the adjacent properties lose value, it's no longer land with views of open space. Should the developer of the former golf course land compensate value lost? Kinda the same ballpark...

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby RailBaronYarr » August 16th, 2016, 8:29 am

EOst wrote:That's why I think it's telling that no-one has really seriously challenged my premise on this from the start, that this could do real financial damage to the owners of some of those condos on Aldrich, and only one person (Nathan) has even really considered it. Does it matter if a development harms those around it? Does it do more good than the evil it causes?
Kinda hard to claim this. Here's a post I wrote on property value impacts from new, large apartments. Here's a quote from it:
Look, I’m not saying putting a 10-story safe house shading of someone’s beautiful sun room won’t diminish its value. In fact, that Portland study went on to say ..
.. It’s probably true that the properties immediately abutting a six-story apartment lose value most of the time, even if new residents or the new building itself brings an amenity to the neighborhood and raises aggregate values. Zoning and small area plans as we’ve conceived them are basically a prisoner’s dilemma response to this reality.
Here's another post of record where I say "In fact, I’d even agree with you that I wouldn’t be thrilled with a 30-story tower going in ten feet from my single family home’s property line in CARAG."

But man. I dunno. Not much other people haven't said already. But the disamenity value discussed in the research (and I should note, it was only found in a subset of the studies I found) was 1) partially in response to public housing (people are awful and racist!) and 2) quite small. And, as I've laid out in the past, it's my personal opinion that this is so hard to predict in any given circumstance, and so hard to weigh against the potential alternatives that it's not really justifiable to use property value drops for neighboring properties as justification for regulating. Who do we take seriously? The people who say ADUs will ruin neighborhood values? The ones who say a 4 story building would have been just fine (and, do we care about ALL units in the Aldrich building, even the ones at garden level who'd be shaded by a 4 story building?)? The people who say losing free on-street parking will lower their value? People who say buses are a "burden" and we should just run them less often or on other streets? Do we feel differently about property values if the development next door is workforce housing and people scream value impacts (even if the development is literally a mile from the bulk of opposed residents)? The list is endless.

And again, I'm not sure policymakers (and definitely residents) are very good at contemplating unintended outcomes. Block this development/reduce its scale (along with hundreds like it), what does that do to regional air quality, regional transportation investments and resulting traffic patterns (even, I might add, right on Lyndale at this corner), etc etc. We haven't even discussed why it's the purview of the city to guarantee property values/increases through zoning in the first place. We wouldn't block a McDonald's from opening next to a locally owned burger joint because it might lower the latter's sales, and case law - even in a country with pretty high tolerance for land use regulations compared to other first world countries - definitely doesn't protect unobstructed light and air. Finally, it's impossible to have a discussion about property values without questioning them as a vehicle for investment in the first place - a questionable goal supported by many policies in this country. We can obviously have a very complicated, lengthy discussion about all this.

Anyway. Yeah a coal plant next door actually has measurable health impacts and fairly predictable safety. While I'm a fan of performance metrics that would allow industry back into our cities (things like air particle ppm within 100' of any wall, noise levels, etc), there's obviously a point or use where it's just easier (and defensible) to regulate them out. There's a middle ground where values will come into conflict, but direct AM sunlight and skyline views simply fall into the First World Problem category for me. It'd be really hard for me to go knock on some apartment dweller's door and tell them my neighborhood would be better off without them and could you please knock down the top 2 floors of your building so I can get some more sunlight plz.

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby twincitizen » August 16th, 2016, 8:42 am

In an attempt to help you guys friggin move on already, I'll answer my own questions:
twincitizen wrote:Worth noting that a space for the theater is not included in the new plans. Unless we hear otherwise, this probably means Theater Garage is just closing up shop.

I wonder if they are still in discussion with Rudolph's to relocate into the restaurant space (this was never actually mentioned or confirmed, but Rudolph's logos did show up on a rendering last time around).
No Theater Garage, No Rudolph's: http://www.southwestjournal.com/news/de ... d-parking/
A restaurant of 5,200 square feet would stand on the corner, with a 1,200-square-foot fitness or retail space on Lyndale. Minneapolis Theatre Garage is no longer part of the project, and Hosmer Brown said he doesn’t plan to relocate the theater. ---- Gerberding said the land deal fell through, and he’s back with a new development partnership that does not include the owners of Rudolphs.

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby amiller92 » August 16th, 2016, 9:20 am

EOst wrote: I'd love to think of a better solution.
The "better" solutions depend on a different property rights regime. The one we have requires a neighbor who wants to protect its views to (a) purchase rights in the neighboring property (an easement or otherwise) and/or (b) attempt to use their political clout to disrupt the planning process. An alternative regime could grant property owners right to their views and thus require new development to purchase the right to impede them, but that's not the regime we have.

Regardless, we should be able to agree that (b) is objectively the worse outcomes among the three.

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby lordmoke » October 12th, 2016, 1:38 pm

Presumably final plans from planning commission, recommended for full approval:
http://minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/pub ... 188022.pdf

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby grant1simons2 » October 12th, 2016, 2:22 pm

That was fast..

clf
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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby clf » October 12th, 2016, 3:02 pm

I find it interesting that Gerberding has changed his LLC again.

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby twincitizen » October 13th, 2016, 8:12 am

Not sure what you mean...

"TGMA Developers LLC" is exactly the same as it appeared on his 2014 application.

Per the SoS website, it's the same LLC he registered in December 2013, which has been renewed annually ever since: https://mblsportal.sos.state.mn.us/Busi ... 1ec94ffe7f

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby xandrex » October 13th, 2016, 1:01 pm

One of my friends was in Steeple People the other day and the guy at the register told him they have to be out by January 1. They're looking for locations nearby with an eye on Nicollet.

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby UrsusUrbanicus » October 14th, 2016, 2:06 pm

xandrex wrote:One of my friends was in Steeple People the other day and the guy at the register told him they have to be out by January 1. They're looking for locations nearby with an eye on Nicollet.
I wonder whether a space in the building formerly home to Defiant Tattoo (Lyndale and Ridgewood) would work for them. Granted, there's an access issue (as far as the restriction of certain traffic movements, complicating ingress and egress for cars). But... might a thrift shop have a lower percentage of car-dependent shoppers in its clientele, making it an ideal candidate for such a location? (Have to assume the rent is more affordable than it might otherwise be, as well...)

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby EOst » October 15th, 2016, 12:02 pm

Nicollet would be great, especially north of 24th. There are a couple spaces along that stretch that I can imagine working well.

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby thatchio » October 15th, 2016, 2:28 pm

I'm disappointed that there will be walk up units on Lyndale on this block. I'd like to see flexible space that could be used in the interim for housing or housing amenities but it should be constructed for commercial use.

The private parking garages are also unique in the market for this sort of thing. Wonder what drove the decision: awkward amount of space available or the monthly rate they could potentially get on a PSF basis vs a conventional stall.

I like that there is now fewer curb cuts.

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby MNdible » October 16th, 2016, 12:07 am

Presumably, the real estate folks have done their assessment of demand for retail space along Lyndale, and this was their best take on what made sense. I think it's still true that rented retail space is more valuable than rented apartment space, so if they thought the retail would rent, they would have built more of it.

I'd have to guess that there's a concrete plinth that's going to separate the 1st level from everything above, so that said, if in the future they find there's more demand for retail space, it wouldn't be a massive undertaking to scrape out those walk-ups and replace them with retail.

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby Archiapolis » October 19th, 2016, 7:56 am

MNdible wrote:Presumably, the real estate folks have done their assessment of demand for retail space along Lyndale, and this was their best take on what made sense. I think it's still true that rented retail space is more valuable than rented apartment space, so if they thought the retail would rent, they would have built more of it.

I'd have to guess that there's a concrete plinth that's going to separate the 1st level from everything above, so that said, if in the future they find there's more demand for retail space, it wouldn't be a massive undertaking to scrape out those walk-ups and replace them with retail.
I don't know about "valuable" but I can say that every developer that I've ever worked with finds dwelling units easier to rent/more predictable/stable etc (in the current market at least) so they'll choose DUs over retail UNLESS they have a letter of intent in hand (not easy in current climate.

What you say about converting level one spaces in the "5 over 1" building type is absolutely true - floor to floor heights are generally higher (amenity spaces at level one usually want a nice, high ceiling which sets the datum line for the whole floor [typically]) and the infill walls are just that - infill. While this arrangement *can* be changed, it would take a good/strong/stable retail tenant (who almost certainly wants PARKING PARKING PARKING) to make it financially feasible to wipe out a DU in favor of retail.

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby twincitizen » November 2nd, 2016, 9:45 am

So the 12-unit condo/co-op building at 2007-09 Aldrich is on the market for $1.5MM: https://www.edinarealty.com/commercial- ... 05-4706983#/

According to the listing, pending board approval of the sale, the co-op would dissolve. This is pretty rare, no?

This is the building where the young lady had recently purchased a unit and made such a stink about the loss of views that it led to the creation of MRRDC. As far as I can tell, that young lady did not remain involved with the neighborhood board or MRRDC after the first iteration of this development fell apart back in 2014. Her stance was... misguided, but she was not a total nutcase like Saralynn, Trilby, and the other whackos in that group.

I wonder if the decision to sell and dissolve the co-op was even tangentially related to the development being approved. Maybe it made some owners more willing to go, but I'd guess that many of the units were actually rented out (not owner-occupied) and it just made financial sense to sell now. I'd guess it will sell in a heartbeat unless the co-op board has a bunch of weird conditions attached to the sale.

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby seanrichardryan » November 2nd, 2016, 10:13 am

Or they discovered they need a 120k boiler and a 75k roof?
All units are listed as 'homestead' and many co-op boards specifically prohibit renting.
Co-op dissolution is pretty rare, especially for a building to be listed on the open market.
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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby TroyGBiv » November 3rd, 2016, 3:35 pm

Glad it is welling... the new tenants or owners will be moving in with the new building there and won't be in a position to protest.

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Re: Theater Garage Marquee Apartments - (Franklin & Lyndale)

Postby nerdljos » November 4th, 2016, 12:26 am

twincitizen wrote:... led to the creation of MRRDC.
Since its creation by the neighborhood's most important resident, and neighborhood org. board member, MRRDC has gone on to greater things: accusing buildings for getting hit by cars, associating urban planning with the third reich resurgence, and more! If anyone wants some highlights, this Twitter thread is particularly great.


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