Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

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twincitizen
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Re: Linden Corner II: The Revenge of Linden Corner

Postby twincitizen » February 20th, 2013, 8:25 pm

This project is now known as Linden Crossing and has been reduced to 16 units (from 18).

The developer says he will not build until all units are pre-sold. That seems excessive. I'd think demand here would be sky high. Excellent neighborhood, proximity to the Lake, business district, expensive surrounding SF housing, etc. Seems like a no-brainer to sell out, quickly even at $275k to over $1MM units.

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby twincitizen » March 5th, 2013, 1:52 pm

The website is up: http://www.lindencrossing.com

Check out the Plans & Pricing section.

Also, now just 15 units that range from 1633 to 2654 sq ft.

4 retail/office spaces with 22 public parking stalls on the ground level.
36!! residential parking stalls, fitness center, & storage underground.

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Nathan
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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby Nathan » March 5th, 2013, 2:12 pm

Two units are reserved already... a 1.25 and a 1.5 million dollar ones... boo hoo...

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby ztr421 » March 5th, 2013, 3:27 pm

Wow - those seem expensive. And unit 204 is virutally window-less!

Also, is there only one entrance for the 22 retail parking spots? Because it doesn't look like there is much room to turn around if you enter and discover there are no free spots!

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby John » March 5th, 2013, 6:17 pm

ztr421 wrote:Wow - those seem expensive. And unit 204 is virutally window-less!
Yeah, and they want 650 grand for it! :?

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby min-chi-cbus » March 6th, 2013, 7:50 am

36 spots for 15 units? I've never heard of such a ratio!

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 6th, 2013, 8:32 am

This is a prime example of where I question the laws of supply and demand... Supply was clearly increased in an area that was already charging MUCH lower purchase prices or rents (at least per square foot): http://goo.gl/zLRfT. You can see the recently sold prices and list prices for places. Far be it from me to say what something is truly, unquestionably, "worth," but a house with 3 BR, 2 BA and 1,700 square feet listed at half the price of the cheapest (also 1,400 sqft but one fewer bedroom) unit seems to support this claim at least a little http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2819- ... 1424_zpid/. And there are plenty of other properties in that exact area that sold recently for similar prices or are 2x bigger than the units in Linden Crossing for half the same price.

I understand condos like this come with amenities like centralized security, gym, attached underground parking, etc (all of which you pay extra for in HOAs by the way).

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby mattaudio » March 6th, 2013, 8:40 am

The equilibrium price isn't necessarily determined yet. My guess is that the two reserved units will end up being a fair bit less than the marketed price. Also, I guess some buyers shy away from SFHs with character, or with unknowns such as expensive systems that may need replacing. It means more deals for the rest of us :)

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby kirby96 » March 6th, 2013, 9:06 am

The real estate market in Linden Hills is simply mind-boggling. I'm living in a very small house that zillow says is worth about 225-250K. That seems reasonable. A similar home across the street sold last fall, and now there is a home on it listed at 825K. Two modest houses down the block sold and underwent huge re-models (not tear-downs). I'm sure they are now well over 500K as well.

I asked a builder friend familiar with the neighborhood, and he claims that it's long-time residents swapping homes but STAYING in the neighborhood, and thus supply is REALLY tight, because when they sell, no supply is created (they buy and sell simultaneously). He thinks it's 'regular' folks (not who you would think of as wealthy), that have lived in a desirable neighborhood for decades and find that even after the housing bust, still might have 200-300k equity in their homes. They want to stay in the neighborhood, and so are able to trade up to 500-1MM homes relatively easily (emphasis on 'relatively'). I can vouch that this seems very accurate from the neighbors I know.

This also seems to jive with the pricing at Linden Crossing. I'm guessing the market is 50 something empty nesters that already live in Linden Hills. They are simply trading equity for a simpler lifestyle.

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby mattaudio » March 6th, 2013, 9:18 am

I know that happens to a lesser degree in my neighborhood, which is very stable but in no way inflated like Linden Hills.

Kirby's insights are helping to nuance my opinion which was recently published here: http://grid.mn/2013/01/density/

While it may be less intentional than I initially thought, I felt like neighbors and investors in a neighborhood struggled to prevent increasing supply as it pushed up their values.

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby FISHMANPET » March 7th, 2013, 9:10 am

Talking about lack of supply, this seems relevant:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Rent-Damn-Hig ... B0078XGJXO

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby mattaudio » March 7th, 2013, 9:46 am

I haven't read that one yet, but I have read this one which is half the price...
http://www.amazon.com/Gated-City-Kindle ... gated+city

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 7th, 2013, 10:03 am

FISHMANPET wrote:Talking about lack of supply, this seems relevant:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Rent-Damn-Hig ... B0078XGJXO
You could upzone Manhattan and Brooklyn to infinity, have 80-story towers everywhere, and I still couldn't afford to live there. And it would be far less of a livable place for it; towers in the sky are akin to flat suburbs - little to no interaction, removal from street life, and to me far more sterile than 2-7 story building provide (I admit that last part is obviously a personal opinion). I'm not saying economics doesn't work (which my other post seemed to imply), it's that a project like this unquestionably increases the supply of housing (from basically zero with a few commercial spaces to 15 units and equal commercial space) yet vastly increases the price per unit (compared to local housing, but in general when 5 homes are torn down to build a small apartment/condo the result is also the same).

With regard to the surrounding area, it also increases the price per square foot. I'm no expert on the finishes of every single home in Linden Hills, but they look to be pretty darn close to the proposed interior of this building. Yes, some people prefer not to have the home maintenance time/cost on themselves. But SOME DO. Some (many) people like to mow the yard, fix their front door handle when it breaks. Some people LOVE the character the old homes there bring (see: every NIMBY neighborhood group proud of the tradition of their homes and the quaint neighborhood feel). And even if some people don't like/prefer to do that type of work, they may not mind it, especially if it saves them $/sqft (which, even compared to more modest condos and apartments, owning homes typically comes with lowered price per space).

I'm also not saying this particular project is bad. I like it, and wish the neighborhood had allowed more. Aside from the economics of housing pricing, there are other factors at play too. Neighborhood/city viability, ability for areas to support transit based on population density (meaning people 4-5 blocks away can now walk to more/improved transit), etc.

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby kirby96 » March 7th, 2013, 11:00 am

RailBaronYarr wrote:I'm not saying economics doesn't work (which my other post seemed to imply), it's that a project like this unquestionably increases the supply of housing (from basically zero with a few commercial spaces to 15 units and equal commercial space) yet vastly increases the price per unit (compared to local housing, but in general when 5 homes are torn down to build a small apartment/condo the result is also the same).
RailBaronYarr wrote:I'm also not saying this particular project is bad. I like it, and wish the neighborhood had allowed more. Aside from the economics of housing pricing, there are other factors at play too. Neighborhood/city viability, ability for areas to support transit based on population density (meaning people 4-5 blocks away can now walk to more/improved transit), etc.
With regards to the first point, yes, this small project clearly increases supply as there was none in the location previously. However, it is the exception that proves the rule in Linden Hills. Building a 15 unit complex was like pulling teeth, and downsized how many times?

I too wish the neighborhood would allow more like this. I'd like to stay there, but at some point my current sweetheart rental arrangement will end, and it's unlikely I will be able to afford to stay.

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 7th, 2013, 11:11 am

kirby96 wrote:I too wish the neighborhood would allow more like this. I'd like to stay there, but at some point my current sweetheart rental arrangement will end, and it's unlikely I will be able to afford to stay.
I think this is my point. You recognize you have a 'sweetheart' deal because the rent you pay is lower than what it should/could be. But that is the reality. People have "sweetheart" deals in their mortgages they've had for 20 years (or more where they own the property) and like living there. If an apartment building came in and built something with more units that cost equal or at least close to the price people were currently paying, then fine (even if it results in less space per unit - I'm fine with this as a person who recognizes the environmental value of shared walls, lower sqft, etc).

But when something comes in and units are double the price, not only does it boot people out who were already meeting the price point of the neighborhood, it further prices OUT people who would have been able to move in to the area when vacancies arose. Yglesias' book seems to be aimed at policies to allow for more affordable housing through free market means, but it ignores the reality that higher demand places with amenities like bike lanes, shopping, transit, and proximity to work and entertainment are now replacing areas like the suburbs as the wealthy choice to live. At least in the past when rich people moved out to the burbs, low-income people had access to jobs through proximity and transit choices. It might be perverse to say that rich people living in the burbs was better than pushing poor people out to them (where they must drive and/or travel further distances to work).

I'ma buy the book, and Gated City, to catch up on some of the policies they propose and see how it lines up with real-world examples.

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby mattaudio » March 7th, 2013, 11:40 am

Not really sure how increasing units in a desirable area would increase the price. Yes, there's unmet demand for million dollar condos in Linden Hills. Yes, a lot of long time residents are paying less than the current market value for their housing. These are separate issues. More units necessarily means lower rents in the aggregate.

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 7th, 2013, 12:29 pm

mattaudio wrote:Not really sure how increasing units in a desirable area would increase the price. Yes, there's unmet demand for million dollar condos in Linden Hills. Yes, a lot of long time residents are paying less than the current market value for their housing. These are separate issues. More units necessarily means lower rents in the aggregate.
Couple thoughts. One is that public policy needs to respond faster to an area's demand and value than they do to reflect actual market price. I've advocated for this regarding parking lots, and I suppose the same is true about SF homes or otherwise. If the demand is there and the market can meet a need with more units than are currently on a site, the city/county needs to increase the taxable value of the land such that a person owning a home either can't afford it anymore and will sell it (likely at a large profit) or increase the residential density of their dwelling by renting out rooms, basements, garage apartments, etc to afford it. Neither of these are comfortable to people as they either bought a property for a reason, and the whole idea of a 30-year mortgage is to ensure the property you bought is yours for that amount of time (and beyond) to do with as you please. People also have a much more emotional connection to their home and find leaving it or changing it simply because other people want to live in that area not an optimal solution. These may be emotional/irrational objections but can at least be understood (ass opposed to "I don't like that apartment over there going up because it's too tall").

What I see is the problem is that the market value of the land/house people own does not usually increase enough to cover the value of their emotional connection to it. Theoretically, if the market value of a property were so high, every property owner would be jumping at the opportunity to sell and afford a more expensive dwelling somewhere else. People may be irrational but the market needs to pay them for what they believe their property is worth.

Finally.. I think the term "in the aggregate" must assume a much wider area than we typically talk about. Adding 500 units to a block won't decrease housing prices in the immediate surrounding area. It may decrease them out in EP, maybe even Hopkins, heck, maybe St Louis Park. But not there.

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby twincitizen » September 17th, 2013, 7:55 am

Strib story on Linden Hills, small area plan, etc. It mostly focuses on this one development, so I figured it made the most sense to post here.

http://www.startribune.com/local/minnea ... 74791.html

3 condos sold, Mark Dwyer is now saying construction will begin when 8 are sold.

The Strib article has a surprisingly lively comment section, for such a small localized issue. It has remarkable balance between pro- and anti- development folks, which is also surprising. It's sad that people truly believe that this building will ruin the neighborhood and everything they like about it.

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby John » September 17th, 2013, 10:34 pm

^^^The scale is very appropriate. It creates much better street frontage and delineation of the northwest corner. It is very high quality with a beautiful design. Some people are just never happy with anything.

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Re: Linden Crossing - (4264 Upton Ave S)

Postby twincitizen » March 31st, 2014, 5:03 pm

Famous Dave's has closed. Groundbreaking in August. &#$%ing finally.

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/n ... pment.html


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