Graves Condo Building - 3041 Holmes

Calhoun-Isles, Cedar-Riverside, Longfellow, Nokomis, Phillips, Powderhorn, and Southwest
Mcgizz
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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby Mcgizz » June 3rd, 2015, 11:10 pm

mattaudio wrote:Homes on Holmes?
B-

min-chi-cbus
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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby min-chi-cbus » June 4th, 2015, 7:04 am

RailBaronYarr wrote:Single family homes with 2,000 finished sqft (and in not-new or updated condition, I'll add) go for $450-500k in this area. I would say $1M+ is the minimum, probably $1.5M
Unlike the Edgewater (which is also very aesthetically pleasing), this project doesn't have views of the lake that will *never* be obstructed. Maybe the top one or two floors will have a glimpse of water, but not the majority of the units. So if they're selling these units to millionaires with similar tastes as those who like Edgewater, hopefully the access to both Lake Calhoun/Isles AND the core of Uptown is enough to entice such buyers, because other than that there's nothing too particularly enticing about this location, which has to be one of the key selling points. However, that being said, I've always thought about this stretch between the Uptown core and the lake as being very under-built/under-appreciated, so I can see why the market is responding like this -- just not quite such luxurious values though.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 4th, 2015, 8:41 am

David Greene wrote:
RailBaronYarr wrote:Single family homes with 2,000 finished sqft (and in not-new or updated condition, I'll add) go for $450-500k in this area. I would say $1M+ is the minimum, probably $1.5M
I don't think it's quite THAT high, especially for something that's not been updated. Our neighbors bought their extensively renovated two-story with well over 2,000 finished sq. feet for $475k, which is on the low end of your scale for non-updated homes. A similar somewhat smaller house went for $425k.

I've seen non-updated houses in the Wedge listed for less than $400k. One has been for sale for almost a year and I'll bet the price has dropped significantly.
Maybe we should all agree that even $350-500k houses aren't really "affordable" in any real sense. A $400k home with 20% down (!) is going to be well north of $2k/mo P/I+ins/tax with today's insanely low rates. Say you're a family willing to forego a second car and bump up your housing costs as a share of income to, say, 35%, you're still talking a required family income of $70k (top 46% of the MSP metro, 30% of the state). Ignoring where a family will come up with an $80k down payment. All of which is to say that whether these units are $750k, $1M, or $1.5M, they're sucking up (even if extremely few) households with buying power that might be willing to spend $150k renovating a unit in some relatively affordable 100 year old building.

Back to this building, I wonder if they'll just squeeze the parking on the ground level. The restaurant is probably small enough to not need any (only 1 space in excess of 4,000sqft per code). The surface parking lot today has 26 spaces - more than enough room for 2 per unit + garbage/elevator/egress space leaving easily 4-5,000 sqft for the restaurant against 31st. Not having structured parking could be a great way to bring unit prices down.

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby Wedgeguy » June 4th, 2015, 8:44 am

^^^^^^^Graves may find that he has to tone down the Lux finishes to get these units sold. I have to agree with you on that the building will have to fight for views in the future. I'm sure that eventually that parking lot across the street will get developed with a minimum of 6 stories that will take some of the views away. Mosaic I think has already put a dent into downtown views from that vantage point. But with the number of units that they have to sell. There maybe that many people that just want to be in the heart of Uptown. This is 9 units and not 30 units. Will be interesting to see if like the 601, there will eventually be a redesign to 2000+ SF units and more units with lower price points. I'm sure they will still have classy finishes, but just tones down a bit. Only time will tell.

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby xandrex » June 4th, 2015, 9:13 am

mattaudio wrote:Homes on Holmes?
Or Graves on Holmes, but that seems to give a different connotation. :mrgreen:
min-chi-cbus wrote:Unlike the Edgewater (which is also very aesthetically pleasing), this project doesn't have views of the lake that will *never* be obstructed. Maybe the top one or two floors will have a glimpse of water, but not the majority of the units. So if they're selling these units to millionaires with similar tastes as those who like Edgewater, hopefully the access to both Lake Calhoun/Isles AND the core of Uptown is enough to entice such buyers, because other than that there's nothing too particularly enticing about this location, which has to be one of the key selling points.
I think Uptown proximity is about all these have going for them. But that really doesn't seem like enough for super luxurious units. Not only do you not get lake views (except maybe a few units?), but your front view is a parking lot. You've got traffic on 31st (albeit not terrible). I just couldn't plop down $1M+ for something like that.

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby John » June 4th, 2015, 9:35 am

^^^ It's in a great location, but I also wonder about the pricing given the traffic and unspectacular views. If I were Graves, I would make the design much more daring and unique to attract buyers. Certainly right now it's a decent design and high quality, however, it's rather generic and looks similar to everything else being built in this town.

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 4th, 2015, 11:11 am

Are we really comparing the traffic on 31st (4,400/day, calmed due to multiple stop signs) to Lake Street (17,800/day, still semi-freeway-like, 38k/day if you include the view west where Lagoon/Lake join)? Heck, Linden Crossing (is?) on a street with 7,800 AADT and no views of Harriet.

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby FISHMANPET » June 4th, 2015, 11:13 am

I'm always amazed at the genuine concern shown for developers here. How ever will we go on if a rich person loses some money building this?
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mnmike
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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby mnmike » June 4th, 2015, 11:29 am

I don't think anyone is really concerned for the developer or his money at all. Just as to whether or not the project is viable enough to actually get off the ground. At least that is the discussion I am seeing anyway.

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby EOst » June 4th, 2015, 11:46 am

Doesn't Graves have the money to self-finance this anyway?

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby MNdible » June 4th, 2015, 11:56 am

Yeah, the pro forma on this one may look something like this:

Graves thinks, "I'm a rich guy, and I'd like to live here. Probably some other rich guys would like to as well."

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby Wedgeguy » June 4th, 2015, 3:51 pm

MNdible wrote:Yeah, the pro forma on this one may look something like this:

Graves thinks, "I'm a rich guy, and I'd like to live here. Probably some other rich guys would like to as well."
You can't beat that rational!! If I could self finance I'd build a building so that I could have the cream of the crop views and enjoy the area!

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby David Greene » June 4th, 2015, 9:56 pm

RailBaronYarr wrote:Maybe we should all agree that even $350-500k houses aren't really "affordable" in any real sense.
Certainly. I wasn't arguiing that it is*. I'm simply questioning the market for $1.5 million condos here. I don't think housing prices are high enough to justify it. You can get a really nice house in East Isles a block from the lake for that.

I agree with min-chi-cbus that this stretch of Lake/31st is due for an upgrade. I'd love to see a more solid commercial corridor from Hennepin to Calhoun. I also agree that currently this location is far from the ideal. It's kind of in a Twilight Zone between the lakes area and the commercial heart of Uptown. It's plenty walkable but doesn't quite feel a part of either place. If it were on the Lake side it would feel more a part of Uptown. Getting rid of the existing parking lots would make a huge difference.

*As an aside, I'll bet there are some affordable (to the middle-to-upper-middle class) houses in the Wedge, but they aren't many for sale yet (I know, that doesn't do anyone else any good). There are some very small, modest houses in the area, especially south of 26th. The point is I don't think housing here is quite as expensive as some people think it is. A really nice or an especially large house will sell for a ton but as I said, there's been a house a block away from me for sale for a year. Obviously it's not fetching an exorbitant price. There are plenty of fix-er-uppers. Cross Hennepin and it's night and day.

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby anders » June 4th, 2015, 10:59 pm

I might be misunderstanding this, but apart from the Sons of Norway parking lot (and maybe the SW corner at Humboldt), I don't see what "upgrades" could be done west of Holmes on 31st. It's more or less fully built, and there are some very nice homes along the stretch. Hell, that's part of the appeal. As for traffic, the only real issue is safely crossing at Holmes and watching out for people blowing the stop signs at Irving and Humboldt. Plus maybe some distracted parking-seekers.

I lived in East Calhoun for a number of years and I gotta say this is a good location, especially if the SoN parking lot gets redeveloped. You're literally around the corner from the heart of Uptown and less than 5 minutes' walk to Calhoun. And having seen the view from Solhem, once you get up a few floors, it's gorgeous looking over the neighborhood and to the lake.

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby David Greene » June 4th, 2015, 11:18 pm

I'm thinking more about the tired-looking one/two-story commercial buildings in the area. The apartment buildings aren't going anywhere. I'm not as familiar with the houses. I'll have to take a walk this weekend. :)

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby anders » June 5th, 2015, 12:54 am

David Greene wrote:I'm thinking more about the tired-looking one/two-story commercial buildings in the area. The apartment buildings aren't going anywhere. I'm not as familiar with the houses. I'll have to take a walk this weekend. :)
On 31st, there aren't any commercial buildings west of Holmes. But that stretch, leading down to Calhoun, is really pleasant especially with the median there to keep the road a little more snug. Lake is a different story when you get closer to Calhoun -- some nice little commercial buildings mixed in, actually, but dwarfed by the wide and fast roadway. Obviously the redevelopment already happening there is changing the dynamic, though I always liked the dinky little retail on that corridor and wish that the sidewalks could be doubled to allow for some cafes and patios and all that. I know it's a fantasy but what are the lane widths on Lake again? It's freaking massive.

Anyway, my point was more that 31st is very nice and probably won't change much in the future besides *fingers crossed* the SoN lot. 3041 Holmes seems like a pretty good location, even for high-end stuff.*

* Not commenting on the specific price points here, just the general strengths of the site, as seen from someone who walked by it every day for years and thought "what a waste of good land!"

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby David Greene » June 5th, 2015, 9:05 am

Ok, I gotcha. I wasn't thinking development on 31st. That's why I said if this were on the Lake side it would feel more a part of Uptown.

I don't deny it's a convenient location. Rather that for being so close to Lake & Hennepin, it still feels disconnected from it.

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby Wedgeguy » June 5th, 2015, 11:45 am

David Greene wrote:Ok, I gotcha. I wasn't thinking development on 31st. That's why I said if this were on the Lake side it would feel more a part of Uptown.

I don't deny it's a convenient location. Rather that for being so close to Lake & Hennepin, it still feels disconnected from it.
I would think that being a block from ground zero and still feeling disconnected would be a virtue for this project.

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Re: 3041 Holmes

Postby PhilmerPhil » January 6th, 2016, 3:30 pm


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Re: Graves Condo Building - 3041 Holmes

Postby seanrichardryan » January 6th, 2016, 5:30 pm

How did Collage manage to create a rendering with warm tones and no flocks of pigeons?
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