2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

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Archiapolis
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby Archiapolis » March 8th, 2016, 12:50 pm

This is currently zoned R6. It's the apex of the Wedge that wasn't downzoned to R2B in the 70s, an area residents have brought up multiple times to downzone or put into a large (..r than Lisa Bender got through) historic district.

As I noted in this post, the city's current zoning code basically makes R5 the minimum you can do a single lot small scale project like this (more than 4 units based on lot size per du, more than 1.5 FAR, etc all point to R5 as the minimum). When I wrote that piece, parking reform around transit lines hadn't been done, so that was the other major barrier. Economics is also the other major barrier, as you need a relatively cheap purchase price to make 6-10 units cash flow after all is said and done (unless you're making these ultra-luxe, in which case 2 parking spaces for 10 units probably won't cut it, at least in Minneapolis). This property sold for $275k, right in the range I analyzed. Assuming this thing doesn't see regulatory or preservation hurdles and it can be built quickly, rents at or below $2/sqft aren't out of the question.

I sympathize with the concern that the interior is intact and this is a shame to lose if you're an old-house buff. But opportunities like this in the Wedge aren't a dime a dozen, let alone a hundred or two of these. There simply aren't many single family homes or duplexes that are zoned R5+ and in rough enough shape to make this work - there are only about 250 total parcels zoned R5 or R6 in the Wedge, many of those being apartment buildings already. To say "yes, but not here" is fairly naive - what houses or duplexes in the Wedge would this NOT be the case for?

I'd say given the need for a broader small-scale infill industry in this town, the known long-term benefits of affordability, the relative small impact this has on its neighbors (compared to the 6 story apartments everyone claims to hate), and the fact that this design in particular is a bunch of reasonable unit sizes (vs that 500 sqft pseudo studios people claim to dislike), the loss of this house is an acceptable tradeoff. I hope that as small-scale infill like this continues to grow as firms become better at doing them that a complementary salvage industry grows as well. Single family home restorers like David and myself gotta get authentic 100 year-old house parts somewhere, right? ;)
Well said.

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby David Greene » March 8th, 2016, 12:58 pm

It's not just a couple units. It's 7 additional units and 14 additional bedrooms. I haven't been inside this house, few have. I'll take people at their word that it's well preserved, but that doesn't mean it won't take likely in the hundreds of thousands to renovate this property top to bottom, inside out.
That's a bit hyperbolic. One *could* spend that much but it's not required. You wouldn't *want* to renovate it top to bottom - the whole point is that the interior is (mostly) intact! The original interior pieces likely don't need to be touched at all. Removing extra kitches, etc. is not going to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. A new high-end kitchen will run about $100k. An mid-to-upper-level bathroom is $30k-$40k but even that is probably unnecessary.

The point is, someone (or multiple someones) could move in and use it as-is. It's pretty rare to find a house like that these days, even if it's only the main floor that's been preserved.

LakeCharles
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby LakeCharles » March 8th, 2016, 1:13 pm

For reference, this meets almost all the things people say they want:
- Local developer
- Small-scale
- Maximum 1-2 stories higher than surrounding properties
- Larger units
- Not all units being studios or 1BR

People are complaining about that new 4plex on Dupont, they hate 2320 Colfax. People complained about that dumpy bungalow and two unimportant 4squares on Girard knocked down for the 4-lot apartment. People will complain about this one too. People don't really want 2.5-4 story walkups. They don't really want the type of apartments we're seeing go up on commercial corridors, with their 5-6 story size made necessary by economics. Any changes we do make to our zoning code, despite some ambitious goals of a few on this board and maybe even a couple city staffers, will be very small. Opportunities like this one won't present themselves very often in the next 20 years. An old house in okay condition is an acceptable loss.
This is the key for me. People complain about any apartment building replacing a house. No matter how small the apartment, or how run down the house. This one seems like a very acceptable trade.

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Nathan
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby Nathan » March 8th, 2016, 1:20 pm

Is there any way the city could incentivize moving older homes?

I am for this project but against sending all of this house to the landfill.

mattaudio
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby mattaudio » March 8th, 2016, 1:24 pm

If they deconstruct this house carefully, 70+% of the materials can be reused.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 8th, 2016, 2:18 pm

That's a bit hyperbolic. One *could* spend that much but it's not required. You wouldn't *want* to renovate it top to bottom - the whole point is that the interior is (mostly) intact! The original interior pieces likely don't need to be touched at all. Removing extra kitches, etc. is not going to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. A new high-end kitchen will run about $100k. An mid-to-upper-level bathroom is $30k-$40k but even that is probably unnecessary.

The point is, someone (or multiple someones) could move in and use it as-is. It's pretty rare to find a house like that these days, even if it's only the main floor that's been preserved.
Perhaps hyperbolic. By "in the hundreds of thousands" I meant $100k+. Point being, a flipper would be buying it at $275k, pumping $100k (or much, much more) into it, then selling it to someone with a $450k budget. Or, a person with a budget of $275k and then the monthly cash flow to slowly make expensive changes over a 5-10 year period could buy it. Maybe the latter saves a bit by doing work themselves, (which requires a LOT of free time). Reality, they'd likely be the in the same income brackets: well higher than any of the people who would share a 2BR $1,750/mo apartment.

Besides, it's really not hard to imagine things getting up into the $200k+ range of costs if you include exterior work/painting, any windows that need reconditioning, new roof, re-finishing any of the interior pieces that are still there (hardwood floors, trim, etc), and bringing anything up to code that isn't (plumbing & electrical needs are fairly common in a house of this age with a history of being rented out). This is on top of any of the items a rational single family buyer is going to want to do to this lot/house: pave a driveway, build a garage, install landscaping in the back yard, put in a fence if they have pets or simply want some privacy, and slap a fresh coat of paint on every interior wall. And all that is on top of the potential $100k+ someone could spend on a kitchen and bathroom. If you want to believe that the *likely* scenario is this home being sold and moved into as-is were it zoned R2B instead of R6 (preventing the possibility of reconstruction), fine. I was speaking to the most likely outcome, which is a house worth easily over $500k.

Archiapolis
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby Archiapolis » March 8th, 2016, 2:35 pm

That's a bit hyperbolic. One *could* spend that much but it's not required. You wouldn't *want* to renovate it top to bottom - the whole point is that the interior is (mostly) intact! The original interior pieces likely don't need to be touched at all. Removing extra kitches, etc. is not going to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. A new high-end kitchen will run about $100k. An mid-to-upper-level bathroom is $30k-$40k but even that is probably unnecessary.

The point is, someone (or multiple someones) could move in and use it as-is. It's pretty rare to find a house like that these days, even if it's only the main floor that's been preserved.
Perhaps hyperbolic. By "in the hundreds of thousands" I meant $100k+. Point being, a flipper would be buying it at $275k, pumping $100k (or much, much more) into it, then selling it to someone with a $450k budget. Or, a person with a budget of $275k and then the monthly cash flow to slowly make expensive changes over a 5-10 year period could buy it. Maybe the latter saves a bit by doing work themselves, (which requires a LOT of free time). Reality, they'd likely be the in the same income brackets: well higher than any of the people who would share a 2BR $1,750/mo apartment.

Besides, it's really not hard to imagine things getting up into the $200k+ range of costs if you include exterior work/painting, any windows that need reconditioning, new roof, re-finishing any of the interior pieces that are still there (hardwood floors, trim, etc), and bringing anything up to code that isn't (plumbing & electrical needs are fairly common in a house of this age with a history of being rented out). This is on top of any of the items a rational single family buyer is going to want to do to this lot/house: pave a driveway, build a garage, install landscaping in the back yard, put in a fence if they have pets or simply want some privacy, and slap a fresh coat of paint on every interior wall. And all that is on top of the potential $100k+ someone could spend on a kitchen and bathroom. If you want to believe that the *likely* scenario is this home being sold and moved into as-is were it zoned R2B instead of R6 (preventing the possibility of reconstruction), fine. I was speaking to the most likely outcome, which is a house worth easily over $500k.
Sorry, (not sorry) to add to the buzzkill but it is VERY likely that these walls are completely uninsulated or have very little insulation. The roof *may* have some (probably insufficient for current code) and the windows are almost assuredly not insulated, thermally broken, double-glazed units.

Putting aside the cost to bring this house up to an aesthetically appealing state, to bring it up to a state that would be environmentally conscious would be a large chunk of money.

As others have stated, it is best to salvage as much of the finish work and framing as possible and rebuild the proposed building here for the greater good that is represented in this higher land use and model for "missing middle/urban infill."

David Greene
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby David Greene » March 8th, 2016, 2:49 pm

No matter how small the apartment, or how run down the house.
Again, this is not a "run down house." It's in quite good condition as far a I can tell.

Is an old house in good condition never worth saving?

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby David Greene » March 8th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Sorry, (not sorry) to add to the buzzkill but it is VERY likely that these walls are completely uninsulated or have very little insulation. The roof *may* have some (probably insufficient for current code) and the windows are almost assuredly not insulated, thermally broken, double-glazed units.
I don't think you can assume that. When I bought my house all of the siding was cracked and warped. All of the interior plaster was intact on the bottom floor. Yet when they drilled into the walls to check, it was insulated with cellulose.

It's very difficult to tell what's in those walls without checking.

Will a small contractor pay the expense of salvage? I have my doubts. At the bare minimum this should not be approved without a plan to salvage the interior.

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby amiller92 » March 8th, 2016, 3:15 pm

Is an old house in good condition never worth saving?
What does "saving" mean? I'm assuming you mean tell the land owner that they can't tear it down or make material changes to it, even if they want to.

I'm not positive about it, but I guess my answer would be "not unless there's a pretty good reason." Being old isn't enough.

ETA: Looking back at the pictures from the craiglist listing, there's some nice wood in there but (acknowledging the limitations of those photos), it didn't look like anything that's not fairly common across the area in pre-war houses.

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby clf » March 8th, 2016, 3:36 pm

"Point being, a flipper would be buying it at $275k, pumping $100k (or much, much more) into it, then selling it to someone with a $450k budget."

These guys are professional flippers. They have a tv show and 20 other properties in the Wedge. I'm sure they could Renovate to Rent as it is.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby FISHMANPET » March 8th, 2016, 3:38 pm

Well they're not flippers, they hold their properties, not flip them. And sure they could. Or maybe not, if they pump that much money into it maybe nobody would want to rent it. Or they can tear it down and building something else because they own it.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 8th, 2016, 3:47 pm

David, what legal mechanism do you propose we use to force them to salvage the interior materials? Someone could buy this home as a SFR and renovate the inside to some modern look and feel without any regulatory hurdles at the city. I agree wholeheartedly we need a better, more consistent salvage industry here, one that sees moving a home as a possibility in some rare cases. I just don't know how (or why) the public is necessarily concerned with what the *inside* of a home looks like - historic preservation focuses pretty much exclusively on how buildings relate to the public realm.

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby Archiapolis » March 8th, 2016, 3:50 pm

Sorry, (not sorry) to add to the buzzkill but it is VERY likely that these walls are completely uninsulated or have very little insulation. The roof *may* have some (probably insufficient for current code) and the windows are almost assuredly not insulated, thermally broken, double-glazed units.
I don't think you can assume that. When I bought my house all of the siding was cracked and warped. All of the interior plaster was intact on the bottom floor. Yet when they drilled into the walls to check, it was insulated with cellulose.

It's very difficult to tell what's in those walls without checking.
Again, buzzkill alert...it is worth checking the walls to see what is there.

As for your anecdote, what I am hearing is that the siding was original (if it was warped, damaged, etc) and that the interior finish was untouched. You've said nothing about evidence regarding a new installation of cellulose which means that we are talking about an original application of loose fill shredded paper and depending upon the age of your house (assumed to be "old"), you are going to have significant settling which means that you are going to have large swaths of the upper part of walls with no insulation. If you are talking about a new installation of dense pack cellulose with each stud bay densely filled after removing the siding then that is a different matter but that's not what I'm hearing. Modern dense pack cellulose and 100 year old loose fill shredded paper are not equal.

With that said, from the google map street view, all of the windows look very old so my statement regarding those remains (until further evidence presents).
Will a small contractor pay the expense of salvage? I have my doubts. At the bare minimum this should not be approved without a plan to salvage the interior.
Pay the expense? There is some value to the salvaged items isn't there? I've never actually experienced a salvage, I've just purchased salvaged items that appear to retain a large amount of value (relative to "new" items of the same make). I think stipulating that salvage occurs is a great idea - I have no idea if it's enforceable.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby FISHMANPET » March 8th, 2016, 3:56 pm

Also I'd like someone to fully lay out the case as to why preserving the interior provides more value to society than providing housing for at least 17 more people on this location, in a place where they will probably not have a car and generally, by virtue of the location, lead a fairly low carbon footprint lifestyle.

clf
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby clf » March 8th, 2016, 3:57 pm

Well they're not flippers, they hold their properties, not flip them. And sure they could. Or maybe not, if they pump that much money into it maybe nobody would want to rent it. Or they can tear it down and building something else because they own it.
"In June of this year the Star Tribune highlighted the story of two local 30-year-old entrepreneurs who have become successful Minneapolis house flippers. Drew Levin and Danny Perkins announced a show on the remodeling network called "Renovate to Rent," offering insights on their current expertise in twin Cities house-flipping. The show premiered June 11, is hosted by Levin, a real estate agent, and Perkins, a licensed contractor. manage about 50 rental properties throughout the metro, mostly in Minneapolis’ Uptown neighborhood and around the University of Minnesota."
http://www.prweb.com/releases/Minneapol ... 302488.htm

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FISHMANPET
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby FISHMANPET » March 8th, 2016, 4:00 pm

I mean, sure, if you want to throw out "flipper" as a deragotory term without even watching the show, sure, whatever, go nuts.

If you watch, the actual point (and it's blatant if you look at the name of the show) is that they renovate to rent out the projects. Renovate to rent. They don't flip them, they hold them and rent them out. Evidenced by the fact that they hold 50 rental properties. Unless we're using "flipper" to mean someone that renovates a home that they own but don't live in? I guess I'm not seeing your point here.

Nicole Curtis, beloved TV star of this neighborhood, is far more of a house flipper than these guys.

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby grant1simons2 » March 8th, 2016, 4:01 pm

Well that websites says they're flippers, so obviously it's true.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby FISHMANPET » March 8th, 2016, 4:04 pm

Oh man and the point of the article is that "flippers" are holding houses to rent out. Excellent source clf. Way to read critically.

clf
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby clf » March 8th, 2016, 4:26 pm

My point was that they were flippers before they had the show. They still flip houses. They just hold on to some and resell others. Levin is still a real estate agent. One of their LLCs is used to buy and sell properties. If they wanted to fix up this house and keep using it as a rental there are ways, which they have demonstrated on their show, to do it affordably.


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