2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Calhoun-Isles, Cedar-Riverside, Longfellow, Nokomis, Phillips, Powderhorn, and Southwest
grant1simons2
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2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby grant1simons2 » March 7th, 2016, 5:02 pm

Wedge Live tweeted out some info on this,

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RailBaronYarr
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 7th, 2016, 6:28 pm

2 total parking spaces, a bike locker in the basement, and 4 stories tall on one barely larger than typical lot. From a small-sounding developer. As a side benefit, all units aren't troll hole sized, 800 sqft and up with all of them sporting 2 BRs but one, which has a den. Excited to see what people hate about this one.

Qhaberl
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby Qhaberl » March 7th, 2016, 6:58 pm

Unfortunately, I can tell you exactly what they're going to hate; They're going to say that two parking spaces isn't enough.

Anondson
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby Anondson » March 7th, 2016, 7:01 pm

It will bury Liquor Lyle's in shadows!

David Greene
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby David Greene » March 7th, 2016, 8:55 pm

Man I dunno. So sterile. Now that I've seen the interior I hope the house can be saved. I like the increase in density but would prefer this to be built on a lot with a less-well-preserved house.

Wedgeguy
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby Wedgeguy » March 7th, 2016, 9:37 pm

I have to agree that I like the fact that this project has some SF with the number of 2 bedroom apartments. Nice to get beyond the one bedroom and micro units. Especially for this area.

gobezlij
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby gobezlij » March 7th, 2016, 9:59 pm

I want to see these springing up all over Minneapolis. So much more appealing than the full and 1/2 block developments that are the norm.

EOst
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby EOst » March 7th, 2016, 10:15 pm

Man I dunno. So sterile. Now that I've seen the interior I hope the house can be saved. I like the increase in density but would prefer this to be built on a lot with a less-well-preserved house.
Ditto. I'd love to see a hundred of these, but not here.

David Greene
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby David Greene » March 7th, 2016, 10:33 pm

Man I dunno. So sterile. Now that I've seen the interior I hope the house can be saved. I like the increase in density but would prefer this to be built on a lot with a less-well-preserved house.
Ditto. I'd love to see a hundred of these, but not here.
I'd certainly be fine with moving the house.

I agree that this could fit well in the neighborhood. But that house is a rarity.

Hell, tear down a house on my block and build it. I have a particular candidate in mind for the wrecking ball. :)

Archiapolis
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby Archiapolis » March 8th, 2016, 8:33 am

Man I dunno. So sterile. Now that I've seen the interior I hope the house can be saved. I like the increase in density but would prefer this to be built on a lot with a less-well-preserved house.
Ditto. I'd love to see a hundred of these, but not here.
Zoning and economics make this kind of project very difficult...

mplser
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby mplser » March 8th, 2016, 8:36 am

YES! this is the kind of project we have been waiting for. now just build 200 more plz!

min-chi-cbus
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby min-chi-cbus » March 8th, 2016, 9:08 am

I want to see these springing up all over Minneapolis. So much more appealing than the full and 1/2 block developments that are the norm.
100% agree with you there! I'd love to figure out how to create projects like these in a profitable way.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby min-chi-cbus » March 8th, 2016, 9:11 am

Man I dunno. So sterile. Now that I've seen the interior I hope the house can be saved. I like the increase in density but would prefer this to be built on a lot with a less-well-preserved house.
Ditto. I'd love to see a hundred of these, but not here.
Zoning and economics make this kind of project very difficult...
Is this within a special zoning area?

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FISHMANPET
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby FISHMANPET » March 8th, 2016, 9:48 am

This is R6, which is a very rare zoning type, and is probably being "wasted" on this comparatively small project.

Something like this should be allowed in R3 or R4 zones, though those are also very rare.

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EOst
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby EOst » March 8th, 2016, 9:56 am

Zoning and economics make this kind of project very difficult...
I know, which again is why I'm conflicted. This is a cool (if kinda ugly) project that sets a great precedent on parking and density. But that house is really cool too.

R6 might be uncommon, but I don't know if "very rare" is the right description, when a pretty huge chunk of the Wedge (everything north of 24th and everything 1-2 blocks east from Hennepin) is zoned that way. This would be a fine project for R5 or OR2 as well, wouldn't it?

RailBaronYarr
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 8th, 2016, 9:57 am

This is currently zoned R6. It's the apex of the Wedge that wasn't downzoned to R2B in the 70s, an area residents have brought up multiple times to downzone or put into a large (..r than Lisa Bender got through) historic district.

As I noted in this post, the city's current zoning code basically makes R5 the minimum you can do a single lot small scale project like this (more than 4 units based on lot size per du, more than 1.5 FAR, etc all point to R5 as the minimum). When I wrote that piece, parking reform around transit lines hadn't been done, so that was the other major barrier. Economics is also the other major barrier, as you need a relatively cheap purchase price to make 6-10 units cash flow after all is said and done (unless you're making these ultra-luxe, in which case 2 parking spaces for 10 units probably won't cut it, at least in Minneapolis). This property sold for $275k, right in the range I analyzed. Assuming this thing doesn't see regulatory or preservation hurdles and it can be built quickly, rents at or below $2/sqft aren't out of the question.

I sympathize with the concern that the interior is intact and this is a shame to lose if you're an old-house buff. But opportunities like this in the Wedge aren't a dime a dozen, let alone a hundred or two of these. There simply aren't many single family homes or duplexes that are zoned R5+ and in rough enough shape to make this work - there are only about 250 total parcels zoned R5 or R6 in the Wedge, many of those being apartment buildings already. To say "yes, but not here" is fairly naive - what houses or duplexes in the Wedge would this NOT be the case for?

I'd say given the need for a broader small-scale infill industry in this town, the known long-term benefits of affordability, the relative small impact this has on its neighbors (compared to the 6 story apartments everyone claims to hate), and the fact that this design in particular is a bunch of reasonable unit sizes (vs that 500 sqft pseudo studios people claim to dislike), the loss of this house is an acceptable tradeoff. I hope that as small-scale infill like this continues to grow as firms become better at doing them that a complementary salvage industry grows as well. Single family home restorers like David and myself gotta get authentic 100 year-old house parts somewhere, right? ;)

mattaudio
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby mattaudio » March 8th, 2016, 10:31 am

We need to upzone all of Minneapolis to allow for this on bus routes. Or 3 story walkups of this anywhere there's R2. Or two story walkups anywhere there's R1.

LHENA is lucky to have something like this in their future.

EOst
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby EOst » March 8th, 2016, 10:38 am

And I think that's a great argument for reforming the zoning code, but I still don't think it's a very good argument for tearing down this particular house. This kind of project would only have significant benefits in aggregate, i.e. if it were the first of a trend. But if there are larger structural problems that prevent more of these from being built, all we're really talking about is demolishing a house from 1893 for a net increase of a couple units.

Not only is this house old and well-preserved (at least inside), it's significantly older (by a decade or more) than almost all of the houses in the LHE historic district; it's very likely one of the first houses built in this part of town.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 8th, 2016, 11:25 am

It's not just a couple units. It's 7 additional units and 14 additional bedrooms. I haven't been inside this house, few have. I'll take people at their word that it's well preserved, but that doesn't mean it won't take likely in the hundreds of thousands to renovate this property top to bottom, inside out. Given housing pressures, this house staying as a rented, run-down triplex wasn't likely, so we're looking at a net loss of residents in conversion (likely a 3-4 person family, potentially a near-retired couple with no kids anymore) vs the gain, so the gap is even wider than comparing to what's there now.

It's impossible to separate the start of a trend from the structural changes we need in zoning to allow said trend. We cannot prove there is demand for this style of building, and the price points it will give us long-term (and, even immediately thanks to the parking reform made already) without having a few built. The structural changes needed for zoning will fly directly in the face of the people who actively down-zoned this neighborhood. Maybe tweaking R2B-R4 is a path that doesn't require re-zoning much of the Wedge to R5 or R6 but will still allow this type of development. Does anyone thing the people who downzoned most of it to R2B will sit idly by while their lots all of a sudden allow 3-story walkups?

For reference, this meets almost all the things people say they want:
- Local developer
- Small-scale
- Maximum 1-2 stories higher than surrounding properties
- Larger units
- Not all units being studios or 1BR

People are complaining about that new 4plex on Dupont, they hate 2320 Colfax. People complained about that dumpy bungalow and two unimportant 4squares on Girard knocked down for the 4-lot apartment. People will complain about this one too. People don't really want 2.5-4 story walkups. They don't really want the type of apartments we're seeing go up on commercial corridors, with their 5-6 story size made necessary by economics. Any changes we do make to our zoning code, despite some ambitious goals of a few on this board and maybe even a couple city staffers, will be very small. Opportunities like this one won't present themselves very often in the next 20 years. An old house in okay condition is an acceptable loss.

clf
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby clf » March 8th, 2016, 12:21 pm

2 things about this. 1st, I have been in the first floor of that house and loved it. A friend of mine was a tenant and had several bbqs there. It was a great place to hang out on that porch and grill and the inside was pretty cool. 2nd, the lot is kind of narrow for a building like this. I would be concerned about the units feeling so narrow on the inside.


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