2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

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amiller92
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby amiller92 » March 9th, 2016, 9:33 am

Drive down Portland sometime.
You'd see a lot more if you were on a bike or on foot. ;) Which I do every work day if the weather's not too bad.
If a bunch of those Tudors were replaced with modern structures it wouldn't be the same place. Sure, some Tudors would remain but it would not be the unique place it is currently.
Park and Portland are both great examples of how actual preservation happens - old stuff sticks around because nobody wants it.

If some of them were replaced by structures people wanted to keep up, it might be a much more vibrant place.

amiller92
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby amiller92 » March 9th, 2016, 9:38 am

If we paired preservation with other societal goals like affordable housing more often (or something else), I could really get behind it.
Apologies for getting way far afield, but I was tooling around the Fort Snelling upper post today. There are a bunch of old and actually historic buildings over there just sitting around unused. They're not very conveniently located (walking or biking to stuff would be a challenge) but it sure would be nice to use more of them for veteran housing or whatever. I'm sure it would cost of fortune to make them usable, though.

HiawathaGuy
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby HiawathaGuy » March 9th, 2016, 9:41 am

If we paired preservation with other societal goals like affordable housing more often (or something else), I could really get behind it.
Apologies for getting way far afield, but I was tooling around the Fort Snelling upper post today. There are a bunch of old and actually historic buildings over there just sitting around unused. They're not very conveniently located (walking or biking to stuff would be a challenge) but it sure would be nice to use more of them for veteran housing or whatever. I'm sure it would cost of fortune to make them usable, though.
This topic is discussed in another thread. There are lots of plans for those buildings. I'd encourage to read up. :)

Archiapolis
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby Archiapolis » March 9th, 2016, 10:03 am

Does anyone know where this proposal exists? I'd love to see the drawings.

EOst
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby EOst » March 9th, 2016, 10:13 am

I'll admit that I find it very difficult to understand or credit arguments against historic preservation. I'm a classicist; everything I study and write about professionally is only available to me because thousands of people over two millennia each, individually, made the choice to preserve the past. Knowing, then, the fragility of things (and how many things were carelessly or expediently lost, much to our disadvantage today) I almost always err on the side of preservation unless there are very good reasons to do otherwise.

I think the discussion of this particular house somewhat clouds the picture here, because really what we're speaking of are general principles. Let's take an extreme example: imagine that Silvio Berlusconi wants to tear down the Colosseum in Rome to build a supertall residential tower. Should he be allowed to do it? I assume (hope) that most people here would respond in the negative, and certainly there are objective arguments to be made that the Colosseum brings more benefit to Rome than some ungodly number of residences would, either through tourism or placemaking or whatever. But I suspect too that, whatever justifications people have, the real reason is more visceral; the Colosseum has been placed into a category of places that have inherent value, that are important simply because they survived and because of what they tell us about the past. The economic arguments might be good on their own, but even if no-one ever visited the Colosseum, would anyone be okay with it being demolished?

I use the Colosseum as an example precisely because its inviolability is a deeply modern thing, something that would have been alien less than a century ago. For millennia people people used the building as little more than a quarry, and much of it is in the walls of the buildings of that part of Rome. Those people didn't see themselves as destroying an ancient monument, they were driven by the same sort of rational arguments that RBY is advancing; that they needed affordable housing (materials) more than they needed the great edifices of centuries past, and in 1000 AD, the Colosseum was Just Another Roman Building, no more in need of preservation than any other. It is only in the absence of all of those other buildings, which were smaller or less durable and therefore no longer survive, that the Colosseum appears so particularly valuable to us.

This leads to an ontological question. If we accept the Colosseum now as an inviolable historical artifact, at what point did it make the transition from building? Was it always so from the day it was built? Did it only gain significance once the rest of historical Rome was stripped away? Does it only have meaning when it is convenient for us to give it meaning? A resident of Rome in 1000 AD would be precisely the wrong person to answer these questions, because the only perspective from which he can see his world is his own. He doesn't know what will happen in 1000 years or 100 or 10; he only knows that he needs stone. Spoliation of the Colosseum made perfect sense from his perspective. But it's monstrous from ours.

I'm not trying to say that Milwaukee Ave is the Colosseum, by any stretch. But arguments of economic or political exigency are dangerous; they lead us in directions whose ends we cannot see. The Gateway demolition was perfectly rational at the moment, to clear out the detritus of the past and make way for the new. But in destroying the entire historic core of Minneapolis, it made it all but impossible for future generations to truly appreciate the circumstances under which this city developed and the people who lived here before us. Because of those demolitions, the people who worked in the Metropolitan Building or lived in one of the flophouses along Washington are in some ways more disconnected from us, more difficult to understand and sympathize with, than the residents of ancient Rome. Our understanding is at best intellectual, mediated through colorless photographs and fading memories. In demolishing the Gateway, we denied ourselves the opportunity to learn from its successes and failures; instead, we can only reckon with the legacy created de novo.

I firmly believe that anything, once created, has value in itself that has to be reckoned against the benefits of whatever we wish to replace it with. This is our past; this is who we are and who we once dreamt of being. We should be respectful of that. Does that mean rejecting any new development, preserving every tumbledown shack, or locking the entire city in place forever? Of course not. But it means that we should seriously and soberly weigh the benefits of the moment against what people to come will think of us. We owe it to the future to be responsible stewards of the past.

mplser
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby mplser » March 9th, 2016, 10:20 am

the lot is kind of narrow for a building like this. I would be concerned about the units feeling so narrow on the inside.
I live in an condo that's probably less than 25 feet wide, and very long. Never feels small or narrow. Everyone always comments about how nice and big it feels when they come inside for the first time. And this is in a building that was built probably 150 years ago.

clf
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby clf » March 9th, 2016, 10:31 am

The plans show that the widest room will be between 12 and 14 feet depending on the unit. Also, a large apartment building is very close to the north side. Maybe when it is built it might not feel so narrow.

mplsjaromir
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby mplsjaromir » March 9th, 2016, 10:32 am

the lot is kind of narrow for a building like this. I would be concerned about the units feeling so narrow on the inside.
I live in an condo that's probably less than 25 feet wide, and very long. Never feels small or narrow. Everyone always comments about how mice and big it feels when they come inside for the first time. And this is in a building that was built probably 150 years ago.
The critique that this building is too narrow seemed odd to me as well. You hear people comment that the new six story apartment buildings units are too deep do not have enough natural light, but this design is no good because the exterior walls are too close. I guess you cannot always please everyone.

mplser
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby mplser » March 9th, 2016, 10:39 am

The plans show that the widest room will be between 12 and 14 feet depending on the unit. Also, a large apartment building is very close to the north side. Maybe when it is built it might not feel so narrow.
There is also a large apartment building about 3 feet away from most of my windows, so this should be very similar to my place actually.

clf
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby clf » March 9th, 2016, 11:07 am

The plans show that the widest room will be between 12 and 14 feet depending on the unit. Also, a large apartment building is very close to the north side. Maybe when it is built it might not feel so narrow.
There is also a large apartment building about 3 feet away from most of my windows, so this should be very similar to my place actually.
This is only my perception after looking at the plans. Also, you said yours is less than 25 ft wide, this is only 14 ft.

mplser
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby mplser » March 9th, 2016, 11:09 am

just measured. it is about 17 feet total, and the widest room is probably 15 feet.

EOst
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby EOst » March 9th, 2016, 11:12 am

In my junior year of college my dorm room was a converted hallway. 9 feet wide, 20 feet long. The dimensions were the first thing anyone ever mentioned.

amiller92
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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby amiller92 » March 9th, 2016, 11:33 am

He doesn't know what will happen in 1000 years or 100 or 10; he only knows that he needs stone. Spoliation of the Colosseum made perfect sense from his perspective. But it's monstrous from ours.
Monstrous? Man, I guess I'd suggest a little more empathy for the people of the past. I'd don't think it's hard to value their survival over our own knowledge or aesthetic enjoyment.

But the Colosseum isn't there because successive generations decided to preserve it. It's there because for a very long time there wasn't any reason to do anything else with it (and it's scale probably made tearing it down impractical). And by the time there was, it was old and special both because of its age and its rarity. That's where its value comes from.

Would it be as special if it was just one of many similar structures that are protected by law? This notion of trying to create historic value by stopping all progress is a fairly new thing and as far as I'm concerned, one that should be limited to protecting those things that are already historical value, not trying to create more by stopping change.
But arguments of economic or political exigency are dangerous; they lead us in directions whose ends we cannot see.
Yes. And that's okay. We cannot control the future any more than we can control the past. That's what it means to be alive.
But in destroying the entire historic core of Minneapolis, it made it all but impossible for future generations to truly appreciate the circumstances under which this city developed and the people who lived here before us.
But if it didn't happen, what would people invoke every time they wanted something not to change? ;)

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby David Greene » March 9th, 2016, 11:44 am

I firmly believe that anything, once created, has value in itself that has to be reckoned against the benefits of whatever we wish to replace it with. This is our past; this is who we are and who we once dreamt of being. We should be respectful of that. Does that mean rejecting any new development, preserving every tumbledown shack, or locking the entire city in place forever? Of course not. But it means that we should seriously and soberly weigh the benefits of the moment against what people to come will think of us. We owe it to the future to be responsible stewards of the past.
This is just wonderful. Thank you.

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby mattaudio » March 9th, 2016, 11:50 am

What occupied the land where the Coliseum now stands? Why wasn't this previous use preserved?

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby mattaudio » March 9th, 2016, 11:54 am

What occupied the land where the Coliseum now stands? Why wasn't this previous use preserved?
That darn Big Developer Nero should have preserved Domus Aurea rather than tear down most of it to allow for the construction of the Roman Colosseum...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domus_Aurea

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby LakeCharles » March 9th, 2016, 12:13 pm

What occupied the land where the Coliseum now stands? Why wasn't this previous use preserved?
That darn Big Developer Nero should have preserved Domus Aurea rather than tear down most of it to allow for the construction of the Roman Colosseum...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domus_Aurea
Nero had the Domus Aurea built, Vespasian had the Colosseum built.

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby FISHMANPET » March 9th, 2016, 12:18 pm

First, I think the value of the Colosseum would be much less if it was a preserved facade covering a renovated and private structure. Second, I'd say the greatest crime in tearing down the Gateway was that it was replaced with mostly nothing, but I understand that people will disagree on that point.

But more importantly on the first, is the value of the Colosseum partly in that it is open for us to see in some regard? And sure we can walk along Milwaukee Ave, but that tells us very little story, all we see are somewhat smaller similar looking houses. I'm not sure how much that consistent streets cape tells us when the insides have all been renovated and our private spaces, hidden from our prying eyes.

As much as I often come across as a heartless unfeeling monster, I do have some sympathy with wanting to save buildings. I shed a tiny tear any time I see a picture of the former Penn Station in New York City. I just have a hard time articulating why it should have been saved. I suppose it certainly was a testament to the wealth and power of railroads in the beginning of the 20th century, and was definitely built from the start as a monument. I was watching something about Grand Central Terminal, and there's a waiting room area where the floor is worn down, from immigrants sitting there shuffling their feet back and forth waiting to board trains west to their new lives. I think that's an incredibly visceral link to the past, something that tells a real story. I'm sure you can find things like that in Penn Station.

But back to this house, or any of the hundreds or thousands of old homes. How visceral is their story, and more important, how relevant is that story to the public? The house I'm renting has been owned by the same family since the 50s, the owner's grandparents lived in it, his father was raised in it. There's spot in the kitchen where they marked the height of the grandkids as they grew. Adam is the owner's name, there are markings "Adam 87" "Adam 88" etc etc. That's a very visceral link to the past, but how relevant is that to the greater public? For sure when the house gets torn down I hope someone in the family at least takes that board out and saves it. But it's certainly not worth saving the entire house over. And even if it was, it would only be preserved for the single family fortunate enough to live in the house. It would in no way educate the public at large about anything.

So I see a big problem with who gets to experience the preserved heritage of these old structures. They are not preserved for the benefit of the public, but primarily for the benefit of whoever is fortunate to occupy them. Couple in the fact that mostly these structures end up being expensive buildings preserved to be even more expensive, and there's certainly a social justice angle to who gets to experience this heritage. And then the number of people (and I don't think it applies to anyone here, but it certainly applies to some people) who use heritage preservation as another tool in their "prevent all change anywhere forever" and then it becomes hard to separate people who are generally interested in preserving heritage and people that just don't like change.

And finally, as Matt says, even the Colosseum replaced something else. If we freeze too much of a place in amber, isn't there a great cost to preventing our future heritage from ever being created in the first place? Everything that exists now. Every apartment, every house, every business, every park, replaced something else. Be it another building or even forest or swamp or prairie or anything, there was something there before what's here now was here. I feel fortunate that in 1909 the space my home occupied was allowed to change, and a house built. I feel fortunate that this house allowed 3 or 4 generations of a family over 60 years to live and grow and experience life and leave their mark, whatever small it may be, on our city. I feel fortunate that now this house allows me to do the same.

On some very visceral level, I feel ashamed about historic preservation of these old houses at the expense of new development, because I feel like we're robbing some future individuals and families from leading their lives and leaving their mark on this city. So what's the greater crime, erasing our past, or preventing our future from even existing?

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby David Greene » March 9th, 2016, 12:27 pm

On some very visceral level, I feel ashamed about historic preservation of these old houses at the expense of new development, because I feel like we're robbing some future individuals and families from leading their lives and leaving their mark on this city. So what's the greater crime, erasing our past, or preventing our future from even existing?
You keep making this point but I am not convinced. There are *so many* underutilized lots in this part of town. There are plenty of structures no one would care about if they were torn down. Why does it have to be *this* one? I am perfectly fine with building a supertall almost anywhere between Lake and 28th. Or along Hennepin or Lyndale. I could accept something shorter (6 stories, as a shot in the dark) on a lot of lots in the interior Wedge.

You argue social justice but you supported 2320 Colfax (so did I) which displaced a bunch of poor people. I still overall support that project, but less so given the rents it ended up with. It will make me more critical of future proposals.

People argue markets, who owns the land, who is willing to sell, etc. as to why this-or-that building gets demolished but I am not convinced by such arguments. I'm a socialist at heart.

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Re: 2008 Bryant Avenue Apartments

Postby FISHMANPET » March 9th, 2016, 12:53 pm

You argue social justice but you supported 2320 Colfax (so did I) which displaced a bunch of poor people. I still overall support that project, but less so given the rents it ended up with. It will make me more critical of future proposals.
I can't really fault you individually for it, but I think this SF type progressive view on housing and social justice is incredibly misguided. San Francisco has focused on protecting the people already there, at the expense of letting anyone new move in. I won't disagree that getting kicked out of 2320 was a bad deal for everyone that lived there. But to use that as a reason to preserve the house as a boarding house (which is neither here nor there, but literally nobody wanted to do that) is short sighted. The real problem isn't hat 2320 was torn down, the problem is that boarding houses are illegal so there was no supply of rooms for these residents to move into.

I think it's very analogous to the view of crime that focuses on punishment. On it's face, a perfectly reasonable view. Crime is bad. And people that commit crimes should be punished. But when the conservation stops there, you miss the huge context surrounding the situation about what caused people to be criminals in the first place. So yes, displacment is bad. But let's not pretend that 2320, even if preserved as a boarding house, would have remained affordable forever, or that keeping it as is would do anything make the city affordable for everybody, instead of the people already fortunate enough to be here.


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