Uptown Hotel Discussion

Calhoun-Isles, Cedar-Riverside, Longfellow, Nokomis, Phillips, Powderhorn, and Southwest
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Nick
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Nick » January 19th, 2016, 6:09 pm

Can you explain this more? I'm thinking of writing the CM.
The neighborhood's opinion of any project is purely advisory to the planning commission and city council.
Part of the problem is that the media (whatever that is) doesn't really do a great job reporting the mechanics behind the development approval process. It's easy to write a clickable and shareable story with great quotes from unhappy people without providing any context as to what the City is actually required, by law!, to consider when weighing decisions on applications.

That a neighborhood group or some neighbors or really anyone at all opposes any given application for a variance or a conditional use permit or a rezoning is legally meaningless. They are certainly able to, and often do, bring up points that are legally meaningful. But "the neighbors don't want it" isn't an argument by itself. There are specific standards that have to be met or not met to approve or deny an application, and the staff reports generally do a very good job explaining those, but they're...long, so you know, quotes from bystanders.

MNdible knows this, MNdible is great, that's just a general thought.

I will continue to hold that this Cabal Of Massively Powerful Neighborhood Groups Stopping All The Projects is largely imagined! That said, if you have opinions that you think aren't represented in these stories, you should travel the extremely small distance past leaving a comment on this forum and actually submit public comment on the project.
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Anondson
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Anondson » January 19th, 2016, 6:29 pm

BREAKING: The Cabal of Massively Powerful Neighborhood Groups Stopping All The Projects is not nearly as powerful as the All Powerful Bike Lobby.

Condo_Dweller
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Condo_Dweller » January 19th, 2016, 11:02 pm

I have a friend on CARAG board and many of the members are in favor of the project, but not just some huge high rise.

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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Anondson » January 19th, 2016, 11:07 pm

Six stories isn't as high rise. Nine stories isn't a high rise.

Condo_Dweller
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Condo_Dweller » January 19th, 2016, 11:21 pm

Six is more like it...nine I felt out of proportion.

acs
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby acs » January 20th, 2016, 12:36 am

Six is more like it...nine I felt out of proportion.
This may be the one time I say shorter is better... but only because that means more hotel demand left over for the calhoun square lot and we know Ackerberg is planning hotel for there.

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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Archiapolis » January 20th, 2016, 8:37 am


The neighborhood's opinion of any project is purely advisory to the planning commission and city council.

I will continue to hold that this Cabal Of Massively Powerful Neighborhood Groups Stopping All The Projects is largely imagined!
I'll just keep saying this (until I've got it in every thread), the whole process is broken when a few loud voices with what seems to be an infinite supply of free time can determine the course of a project. I know the neighborhood groups are just "advisory" but, as pointed out, those are the quotes that get used that then shape the public perception.

I'll also add that the when people come to the meetings with insane ideas to put a three story brick walkup on a lot that should have 3-4 times that density the architects/developers are the only ones there to articulate why that idea doesn't make sense which immediately sets up an "us versus them" situation which is toxic. Again, without any representatives from the city saying, "Here is what the comprehensive plan says..." the perception that "greedy developers" are sitting at home planning to destroy every neighborhood in town to make a dollar is going to continue to win the day.

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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby David Greene » January 20th, 2016, 2:59 pm

Perhaps the architects and developers need to do better messaging, then.

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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby HiawathaGuy » January 20th, 2016, 4:24 pm

Image
Updated rendering from the Southwest Journal.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby RailBaronYarr » January 20th, 2016, 4:25 pm

If architects are having a tough time messaging projects along Lake, Lyndale, the Greenway, etc - places where small area plans and the Comp Plan have already prescribed growth.. on surface parking or other vacant lots... I dunno man.

Nick is right that almost zero projects have met their sticky end because of neighborhood opposition. A few took too long to approve. But mostly I think this is because development has been on mostly uncontroversial sites (aforementioned surface parking lots and former lumber yards). Once we finish off the few remaining sites in Uptown, I wouldn't be shocked to see much harder fights and more split council votes when it means tearing down homes and violating SAPs directing growth at heights less than what the market can bear and only at major nodes/corridors.

Also! Sign this petition if you want a hotel in Uptown, maybe. https://www.change.org/p/lisa-bender-mi ... eapolis-mn
Last edited by RailBaronYarr on January 20th, 2016, 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby seanrichardryan » January 20th, 2016, 4:27 pm

AHh, token flock of birds and plenty of cars. Collage never disappoints!
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

mnmike
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby mnmike » January 20th, 2016, 5:05 pm

Try not to get too mad at me...but I kind of think the 6 story version looks better! The 9 story version looked oddly placed and top heavy or something, to me. I think 9 stories on the full width vacant spot next to Calhoun Sq would look good though! And several other places nearby...something about that initial rendering of this hotel didn't look right to me here though. I will be happy with the 6 story version, get it done!

aeisenberg
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby aeisenberg » January 20th, 2016, 6:36 pm

Try not to get too mad at me...but I kind of think the 6 story version looks better! The 9 story version looked oddly placed and top heavy or something, to me. I think 9 stories on the full width vacant spot next to Calhoun Sq would look good though! And several other places nearby...something about that initial rendering of this hotel didn't look right to me here though. I will be happy with the 6 story version, get it done!
The 9 story version was never their intention. I guarantee it was a negotiating tactic from the start.
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Archiapolis » January 21st, 2016, 9:45 am

Perhaps the architects and developers need to do better messaging, then.
This comment is nonsensical.

I'm talking about things that are objective (density, height, mass, "bulk"), not subjective things like material choices.

The city has a comprehensive plan which has measurables. It will NOT be possible to meet the goals of the city of Minneapolis in regard to population growth by building ONLY upon empty surface parking lots in downtown Minneapolis unless downtown is going to be built out with Burj Khalifa's everywhere. Any sane person understands this fact. It should not fall solely upon architects and developers to deliver THE CITY'S message to neighborhood groups regarding population growth goals which also require dense/tall buildings. The architects/developers shouldn't be explaining how "air rights" work and that "views" are not sacrosanct, etc. This is the CITY'S zoning code, not a document that architects and developers wrote in a smoke-filled back room.

You claim to have spent time at neighborhood presentations for projects and I'm not going to call you a liar but every presentation that I've been a part of in neighborhoods from the North Loop to Uptown, to first ring suburbs, there are immediate objections to height and massing of every building.

Why is it the architect/developer's job to deliver a city's message?

When it is necessary for a project team to present a project to a neighborhood group just to hear ludicrous desires for a site that do not fit with the city's comprehensive plan when anyone who understands the process knows that those desires should be and will be ignored, we have reached the point of farcical waste of time.

Please explain how you think this farcical process has any value.

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jw138
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby jw138 » January 21st, 2016, 10:54 am

The 9 story version was never their intention. I guarantee it was a negotiating tactic from the start.
That was my suspicion too. I'm no insider, so looking at it from from the outside, isn't it pretty standard for developers to make proposals that go beyond what they'd actually be willing to settle for?

David Greene
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby David Greene » January 21st, 2016, 1:22 pm

Why is it the architect/developer's job to deliver a city's message?
Because they are the ones selling the project. If they want to bring in a city staffer to do it, fine, but it would be a mistake. People don't respond to rules and regulations. You have to tell them what's in it for them. I have not really seen that in the meetings I've attended.

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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Condo_Dweller » January 21st, 2016, 2:29 pm

I have to agree with David Greene here. The burden is on the developer to make a sound sales pitch. If you can't do that then you get an F for effort. The average Joe is not going to be up on every nuance of city code, and what the long term goal is for that neighborhood. For crying out load hire a PR guy that knows all this stuff and bring her/him to the meetings.

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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby grant1simons2 » January 21st, 2016, 2:31 pm

It's hard to sell a building when all the neighborhood wants to ask about is parking.

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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby PhilmerPhil » January 21st, 2016, 3:41 pm

Right^

I fee like Don Garbledoogie is pretty good at presenting projects. For both FrankLyn and Rex 26 he went through the checklist of why the projects will benefit the neighborhood and the overall benefits increased density brings. That doesn't matter when people are just opposed to anything that doesn't fit their idea of "character."

This also brings up the issue of smaller missing-middle developers that don't have a team of architects to present at meetings. I felt pretty bad for the Garfield Aquarium developer. He's just a guy doing a pretty small scale independent development and you could tell public speaking and charismatic selling of his project were not his strong points. It must've been emotionally wearing on him and his wife to sit through the meetings he presented at.

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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby MNdible » January 21st, 2016, 4:06 pm

I felt pretty bad for the Garfield Aquarium developer. He's just a guy doing a pretty small scale independent development and you could tell public speaking and charismatic selling of his project were not his strong points.
Aaron Parker is plenty smart and sophisticated enough to deal with neighborhood groups, although he may not have the proper temperament and patience to put up with them.


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