Uptown Hotel Discussion

Calhoun-Isles, Cedar-Riverside, Longfellow, Nokomis, Phillips, Powderhorn, and Southwest
David Greene
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby David Greene » March 3rd, 2016, 3:05 pm

RailBaronYarr wrote:people who bought any time in the last 10-20 years have seen 6-7% annual returns on the estimated value of their homes **despite the massive housing market crash**.
We have? That's news to me.

David Greene
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby David Greene » March 3rd, 2016, 3:07 pm

acs wrote:Why should we let these people have any say in what the city looks like in 2040
Yes, why *should* people who live in a place have any say in what happens in that place?

Let's see how you feel 30 years from now.

amiller92
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby amiller92 » March 3rd, 2016, 3:39 pm

David Greene wrote:Yes, why *should* people who live in a place have any say in what happens in that place?
I think you meant to say "lived" there. That's a rather important distinction.

Also, you probably meant "some" of the people who lived in a place. Because we all know these planning processes involve only a tiny fraction of neighborhood residents.

So, yeah, I don't see a lot of reason to let a small handful of people from the past have too much sway. Some of them are gone. Others of them may even have changed there minds.

David Greene
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby David Greene » March 3rd, 2016, 4:18 pm

amiller92 wrote:
David Greene wrote:Yes, why *should* people who live in a place have any say in what happens in that place?
I think you meant to say "lived" there. That's a rather important distinction.
Except that's not what acs said at all. He said certain people who live in a place should not be allowed to influence the future of that place.

That's downright dictatorial.

amiller92
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby amiller92 » March 3rd, 2016, 4:38 pm

David Greene wrote:Except that's not what acs said at all. He said certain people who live in a place should not be allowed to influence the future of that place.

That's downright dictatorial.
That's a pretty strange reading. He said the plans need to be updated constantly if we're going to let them control. The "people" he said should not get any deference are the people of the past who made a plan long ago. He's arguing that we should make today's decision today, not by reference to a plan. Or at least that's what I read.

I don't see what's dictatorial about that.

grant1simons2
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby grant1simons2 » March 3rd, 2016, 4:39 pm

Why should we let these people have any say in what the city looks like in 2040 when they will be long dead and forgotten by then?
Full quote. Bit harsh.

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Nathan
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Nathan » March 3rd, 2016, 4:40 pm

But isn't a small group of people who made sap trying to convince the city that their outdated plan is the only correct solution for the neighborhood also dictatorial?

acs
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby acs » March 3rd, 2016, 4:44 pm

No, amiller has it right, David. I specifically called out elderly homeowners and my Joe Schmo was a reference to Phil Qualy who definitely fits that bill. I can guarantee you that he won't be living in CARAG in 2048 because he will be in a cemetery, so why should we let him and others like him dictate what the neighborhood looks like at that time? You may think that's dictatorial but I think setting neighborhood zoning plans in stone for 40 years is equally absurd. That's why we have to be flexible and we saw the results of that today.

David Greene
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby David Greene » March 3rd, 2016, 4:59 pm

I apologize, I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that people should be excluded from the planning process, period. How long that plan is "set in stone" (they never are, BTW) is a separate question.

How often are plans updated now?

David Greene
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby David Greene » March 3rd, 2016, 5:01 pm

Nathan wrote:But isn't a small group of people who made sap trying to convince the city that their outdated plan is the only correct solution for the neighborhood also dictatorial?
No, it's the right of participation. We should not deny ANYONE their right to participate.

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Nathan
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Nathan » March 3rd, 2016, 5:17 pm

They obviously got to participate... but anyone who moved to the neighborhood since then didn't... anyone who didn't know that the plan was being made didn't... probably a lot of new business owners didn't... it seems to me that they are trying to make their participation a lot more relevant or important than anyone else's. To imply that their neighborhood plan is the hardline on how the city needs to act on land use is laughable. Do you realize how much we've learned about creating sustainable neighborhoods or transit oriented development or any host of things since they made this plan!? They are resting on the plan to try to stop something they don't like. If you call it what it is, privileged people creating the system, to protect their interests and privilege then fine, but I don't think they should have as much influence as they have. It's a great process, but hardly the end all to how our city should plan. Input yes, but not absoluteness.

David Greene
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby David Greene » March 3rd, 2016, 5:56 pm

Nathan wrote:They obviously got to participate... but anyone who moved to the neighborhood since then didn't... anyone who didn't know that the plan was being made didn't... probably a lot of new business owners didn't...
Well yeah. We should make the process more accessible. But ultimately people have to participate to have their voices heard. It's not *all* on nasty, dirty, corrupt, morally bankrupt homeowners.

What would be an acceptable refresh period on SAPs?

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Nathan
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Nathan » March 3rd, 2016, 6:09 pm

I dunno, 5 years probably!? I know they aren't all bad, but I think the way they are using it in this instance is corrupt. I think that if the city has invested in newer studies for the city as a whole, for instance the newer movement to increase density and uses within critical transit areas I think that should probably have more influence than the neighborhood's ideal if they cross. The city has an obligation to make the city livable and sustainable for all it's people and this project creates a lot of good jobs on critical transit routes.

grant1simons2
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby grant1simons2 » March 3rd, 2016, 6:15 pm

Blanket SAP: Build on surface lots, maintain history, maintain culture, trees, bike friendly, fewer cars, family friendly, safe.

David Greene
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby David Greene » March 3rd, 2016, 7:19 pm

Nathan wrote:I dunno, 5 years probably!? I know they aren't all bad, but I think the way they are using it in this instance is corrupt. I think that if the city has invested in newer studies for the city as a whole, for instance the newer movement to increase density and uses within critical transit areas I think that should probably have more influence than the neighborhood's ideal if they cross. The city has an obligation to make the city livable and sustainable for all it's people and this project creates a lot of good jobs on critical transit routes.
I can't disagree with that!

David Greene
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby David Greene » March 3rd, 2016, 8:45 pm

Qualy is acting like a...well, he's not doing himself any favors credibility-wise. Read the Strib comments.

However, I think we can separate the concern from the person expressing the concern. A lot of people do think that SAPs should stand for something. I happen to think so too, but not quite as rigidly as Qualy would like.

Should SAPs be more binding than they currently are? If so, I agree with acs that their lifetimes should be short. I can certainly see why people who put a lot of time and effort into the planning feel betrayed when that plan is overridden in one way or another. Perhaps the city needs to do a better job during the planning process educating people about the SAP as a guide rather than an ironclad set of rules.

The city ought to have a program like the county's government education series. It would be helpful to have a place to go to learn about how zoning, planning, variances, etc. work together to shape the city.

I dunno, I'm kind of rambling but it seems like SAPs are currently in this nebulous area where few people really understand what they mean. It seems like it should be clarified somehow.

thatchio
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby thatchio » March 4th, 2016, 12:09 am

Zoning that is more rigid is better than a flexible plan. Move the fight to planning processes that then result in zoning changes that set expectations. Less fighting on individual projects as more is allowed as of right. Let the plan, which sets many peoples' expectations anyways actually have some absolutes out of it. As someone who worked in development, I'd prefer to have less entitlement risk and less subjectivity in land values.

When every project is a battle about height, parking, and massing, all the other details largely get ignored. Proponents feel they can't be critical or offer constructive input because it may detract from the overall message that the project should be, in general, approved.

Example: several of the projects on the north side of the Midtown Greenway have poorly conceived promenade designs. This is in part due to the minimal planning guidance and no design standards, which left developers to propose design. When battles were focused on whether the projects were the right scale or had enough parking, much less time was focused on development details that take buildings from okay to good or great.

How much of this hotel proposal discussion was spent on any of the details other than big picture massing, parking, and height?

Wedgeguy
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby Wedgeguy » March 4th, 2016, 8:30 am

I'll agree with you tharchio on the poor results of the promenade. The stamped concrete is slippy when it rains and snows. Might take a lawsuit or two for them to decide to put in a better walkway. Lighting is another not so good with Flux and West Elan and by the steps at Central Elan where you have to go up a few steps. Surprise no one has done a nose divie due to the poor lighting if they did not know it was there.
Recommending things to make a project better is ammo for dissenters.

amiller92
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby amiller92 » March 4th, 2016, 10:09 am

David Greene wrote:Perhaps the city needs to do a better job during the planning process educating people about the SAP as a guide rather than an ironclad set of rules.
These people know that. They're playing politics.

David Greene
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Re: Uptown Hotel Discussion

Postby David Greene » March 4th, 2016, 10:28 am

amiller92 wrote:
David Greene wrote:Perhaps the city needs to do a better job during the planning process educating people about the SAP as a guide rather than an ironclad set of rules.
These people know that.
Do they? Are you sure? Because it sure doesn't look like it to me. Maybe some people know but I can guarantee that most people don't.


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