Wabasha Center (Former Macy's) - Downtown St. Paul

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MNdible
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby MNdible » January 29th, 2014, 6:08 pm

Why would the city's code limit the height to 13 lucky stories?
Didn't read through all of the documents, but couldn't find this reference in the ones I did look at. I wonder if it's not the FAR that's limited to 13 stories? The PDF flyer explicitly shows an option for a much taller tower on only a portion of the site.

at40man
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby at40man » January 29th, 2014, 8:52 pm

3rd paragraph of the Pioneer Press article. The Wells Fargo Place / Minnesota World Trade Center tower right next door is the tallest in the city, so I find that 13 story limit somewhat odd.

Pre-recession, I remember a developer wanting to build a 40 story hotel tower across from Macy's. http://www.twincities.com/soucheray/ci_7636351

at40man
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby at40man » February 1st, 2014, 10:36 am

Oh lurd... a few loud mouths want to save this turd...

Pioneer Press: St. Paul history buffs want Macy's building saved

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BigIdeasGuy
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby BigIdeasGuy » February 1st, 2014, 12:08 pm

Oh lurd... a few loud mouths want to save this turd...

Pioneer Press: St. Paul history buffs want Macy's building saved
This is why we can't have nice things

Snelbian
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby Snelbian » February 1st, 2014, 4:46 pm

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

MNdible
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby MNdible » February 1st, 2014, 4:59 pm

That's quite the reaction to a little report. And why, exactly, is it so absurd to suggest that buildings built 50 years ago, representative of a very particular moment in our urban history, might be worth considering for preservation? I don't know that I'd fight hard for the old Dayton's, but some of the other buildings in the area and of the same vintage certainly are significant and worth preserving.

Snelbian
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby Snelbian » February 1st, 2014, 5:31 pm

Age and distinctiveness doesn't make a bad building worth preserving, especially in a downtown with real topographical limits. If da Vinci himself had designed that building it would still be begging to be demolished.

Tcmetro
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby Tcmetro » February 1st, 2014, 11:40 pm

The problem is the surrounding areas are horrendous for urban form (Norwest Center, Town Square, World Trade Center, US Bank, etc), that the Dayton's building is contributing to the death of street life and of the area. If it was surrounded by good, well-designed buildings, then I would think a consideration to keeping the building would be worthwhile.

My main concern with demolition is that nothing is lined up to be built on the site. So we'll have an awkward empty slope parcel just sitting there.

mulad
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby mulad » February 2nd, 2014, 8:20 am

It's a hulking, windowless mass, only a step removed from a typical big-box store of today, like Home Depot. Are we going to preserve Home Depots in the future? I doubt it.

I don't have any problem with reusing the western side of the building that fronts Wabasha -- Recladding the exterior and adding windows would make it look more like a regular building. The lower level should be divided up into multiple storefronts. Wabasha is one of the most "Main Street"-like thoroughfares in downtown St. Paul, and this presents a great opportunity to heal a gap.

The building extends out over the sidewalk, which makes me think of adding additional columns to create something like an arcade -- There is already an arcade-like feature on the neighboring Wells Fargo building, though it was probably a bit too narrow to work well. The Macy's building overhang seems a bit wider, though. Adding an arcade in the front also adds to the options for recladding the building -- simple, modern, squared-off columns would be fine, but if arched openings could be done, it would make sense to use some older design language -- something that looks more ornate, to blend in with the buildings on West 7th Place or The St. Paul Hotel or whatever. Even the Lawson Commons building/parking structure has arches over the storefronts along Wabasha.

The east side of the building is a disaster, however. Unfortunately, I think the CCLRT designers screwed up when they decided to put the power poles down the middle of the rail right-of-way, which adds 3-5 feet to the room needed for the tracks. They should have tried to hang the power cables from the buildings somehow, and then the sidewalk by the Macy's building would have at least been usable. I believe the west half is also mostly where the parking structure is, but I'm not quite sure how the whole building is laid out -- it might actually be that the parking structure sits on top of the store area. And the ramps for cars exiting the parking structure on the 6th Street side are just godawful. Pedestrians might be okay with the ramps staying if some storefronts can be wedged into the space behind them, but it's all on a slope which makes that dificult. The ramps also interfere with the bus lane on 6th, and when I've biked past there, it's always been a guessing game as to whether the drivers see me or not when they pull onto the street (the viewing angles are bad, so there are mirrors to try and help the situation, but they don't work especially well).

Well, the big number to beat is $13.5 million -- the estimated cost to tear down the whole building. How much improvement can be done to the existing structure for that much money?

at40man
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby at40man » February 2nd, 2014, 8:46 pm

I don't have any issue with the building being redone, renovated, or re-used if they make fixes. Big changes would be inevitable, good suggestions are above.

It doesn't mean this building deserves historic designation. And the changes needed to be made would mangle the facade that is being called "historic". :roll:

MNdible
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby MNdible » February 2nd, 2014, 10:58 pm

The reaction just seemed a little bit overdone.

If you read the article, the report isn't singling out the Dayton's building in particular (I'd be the first to admit that it's problematic from an urbanist point of view). It's noting that there are a number of buildings in this area that we should look at more carefully before we haul out the wrecking ball. They could tear down the Dayton's building and still have a good representative sample in this area.

The historic preservation boards in both St. Paul and Minneapolis get vetoed with regularity, so I wouldn't get your panties in too much of a bunch about this.

seanrichardryan
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby seanrichardryan » September 2nd, 2014, 6:13 am

Too spendy to demo, any proposal now likely to include Gruen building.

http://m.bizjournals.com/twincities/blo ... h-its.html
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

mattaudio
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby mattaudio » September 2nd, 2014, 8:26 am

What would it look like with windows knocked out?
ImageRosa Parks Pavilion by MSPdude, on Flickr

blobs
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby blobs » September 2nd, 2014, 8:34 am

Maybe they could turn it into an athletic club or gym

at40man
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby at40man » February 18th, 2015, 8:16 pm

Maybe they could turn it into an athletic club or gym
Not too far off -- similar to the Block E repurposing, the Wild would like a practice facility in downtown St Paul. Perhaps the Macy's building doesn't have to be an albatross...

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_ ... e-facility

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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby mplsjaromir » February 19th, 2015, 9:02 am

That is a wonderful plan.

David Greene
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby David Greene » February 19th, 2015, 3:01 pm

http://www.startribune.com/local/stpaul/292696031.html
It’s one of the critical blocks in the City of St. Paul. Not only because of its location near the main stop of the light-rail at Central Station in St. Paul, but because it is symbolic of where we are headed.
Looks like St. Paul is headed toward converting its retail into uses that kill street and skyway activity.

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby HiawathaGuy » February 19th, 2015, 3:13 pm

Looks like St. Paul is headed toward converting its retail into uses that kill street and skyway activity.
Right, because leaving it sit empty for another 5 or 10 years certainly helps street/skyway activity?
I'm confused by your logic.
It's not like there are a ton of retailers knocking down the City's doors to open things...

I think this could be a very creative reuse of a building that will never ever be the same as it was in its hey day, circa 1982.

twincitizen
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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby twincitizen » February 19th, 2015, 3:34 pm

I don't think it's too controversial or far-fetched to say that Downtown St. Paul will likely never see another office tower built again. Certainly not anytime in the next decade (if not two), given current vacancy rates, rent commands, etc.

Assuming that to be true, let's say the city did tear Macy's down and parcel it out for a couple of apartment developments. In an EXTREMELY rosy scenario, let's say two Nic on 5ths, maybe with a small office or hotel component and street level retail of course. Now factor in the cost to demolish, probable years (5? 10? more?) that it sits completely vacant as residential demand builds, etc.

I can see why St. Paul is having second thoughts about tearing it down when redevelopment is so uncertain. LRT and general demand for urban living are helping move things in the right direction, but Downtown St. Paul has SO MUCH surface parking and existing buildings that can be converted to residential before anyone would try to build something worthwhile on this block. Finding a somewhat compatible reuse such as this for the next 15-20 years may not be the worst answer.

That said, in a perfect world, Ramsey County would take some of the money slated for demolishing their old Kellogg Ave buildings and instead help St. Paul defray the cost of tearing down Macy's...but that doesn't appear to be an option. St. Paul is really between a rock and a hard place with this Macy's deal. They really should have gotten a better estimate on demolition costs before the Port Authority jumped in to outbid whatever private buyer was interested. Had they known demolition was going to be $18MM or whatever, I'm not so sure they would've been so enthusiastic to make that purchase.

I think as long as there is an understanding among all parties that the true goal remains to tear this building down (at the appropriate time), then a less than ideal reuse is totally fine in the interim, even if interim is more than a decade.

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Re: Former Macy's Site

Postby David Greene » February 19th, 2015, 3:34 pm

Looks like St. Paul is headed toward converting its retail into uses that kill street and skyway activity.
Right, because leaving it sit empty for another 5 or 10 years certainly helps street/skyway activity?
It would be better to let it sit a few more years than lock it up long-term for a non-productive use. The building should be demolished anyway.


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