Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

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MNTonka
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Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby MNTonka » June 5th, 2019, 4:58 pm

I’d like to get some discussion started on the former Hillcrest golf course site on the city’s northeast corner. The site is nearly as large as the former Ford site, yet it seems to be flying under the public radar. I haven’t really heard anything about it as of yet. What would you like to see happen here?

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Anondson
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby Anondson » June 5th, 2019, 7:59 pm

Last I heard the St. Paul port authority was getting involved, maybe buying the site even to prepare it for something.

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Tiller
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby Tiller » June 6th, 2019, 3:25 am

The "future land use" for this site in the 2040 land use map was nearly entirely single family homes, with a tiny "business node" on larpentuer. I grew up near here, and would hate that result.

Hopefully that is just a placeholder, but unless we push elected officials and organize to make it happen we're going to get a dumb result. Sustain Ward 6 anyone?

DThompson
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby DThompson » June 6th, 2019, 1:36 pm

Isn't it technically zoned Urban Neighborhood? According to the 2040 plan that is pretty broad.

"Urban Neighborhoods are primarily residential areas with a range of housing types. Single-family homes and duplexes are most common, although multi-family housing predominates along arterial and collector streets, particularly those with transit. Multi-family housing, schools, neighborhood parks, religious institutions and cemeteries may also be scattered throughout Urban Neighborhoods. Limited neighborhood-serving commercial may also be present, typically at intersections of arterial and/or collector streets."

Vagueperson
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby Vagueperson » June 6th, 2019, 10:07 pm

Here are a couple recent articles:
http://www.startribune.com/city-of-st-p ... 510531392/
https://www.twincities.com/2019/05/28/p ... lf-course/
https://www.twincities.com/2019/05/27/s ... there-yet/

They've designated it an “industrial development district,” but it appears this is in order to clean it up and not indicating an industrial future. Maybe I'm not understanding that correctly, however.

MNTonka
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby MNTonka » June 8th, 2019, 9:57 pm

I’m hoping the 2040 plan did not account for the land to be sold? Or am I wrong about this?

I took a walk through the former golf course this past winter to check it out. On the northern end, there is a large hill with a great view that you can clearly see the Minneapolis skyline on a clear day. This space should absolutely be converted to a park/public space. The view is really good for MN.

3M is a mile away from this site. I would imagine that this land is on their radar. Not for business purposes, but for the opportunity to influence the future development of the land. To create a sustainable, local, and vibrant community. The type of place that would attract a young, talented workforce that every corporation is fighting over. Close proximity to your workplace is increasingly important to graduates these days. 3M could be used as an ally in how this land gets developed.

MNTonka
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby MNTonka » July 17th, 2019, 8:38 pm

St. Paul City Council approved the purchase of the site for $10m.
https://www.twincities.com/2019/07/17/1 ... -purchase/

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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby karen nelson » July 26th, 2019, 3:10 pm

This seems like kiss of death "Last I heard the St. Paul port authority was getting involved"

My experience with them is they have know vision of what cities do best and where cities are going in future but rather think cities can reclaim manufacturing jobs of old by building same sort of space manufacturers want and can get in exurbs for far lower price - and then wonder why no manufacturers will lease their buildings they build.

This site on two arterial roads near SFH begs to be a mixed use development for MFH residential, retail and office space along main roads, tall residential inside, tapering down do "missing middle" type stuff along the current SFHs to the east side of site . Hook it up with a nice park, bike paths and BRT node and it could be great neighborhood.

mattaudio
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby mattaudio » July 31st, 2019, 2:24 pm

The vast majority of SPPA projects are total duds that look like they're competing with Rogers or Shakopee for low-employment-density warehousing and manufacturing. https://www.sppa.com/commercial-redevel ... d-projects

MNTonka
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby MNTonka » August 3rd, 2019, 6:00 pm

mattaudio wrote:
July 31st, 2019, 2:24 pm
The vast majority of SPPA projects are total duds that look like they're competing with Rogers or Shakopee for low-employment-density warehousing and manufacturing. https://www.sppa.com/commercial-redevel ... d-projects
Ooof. Nothing like any of those, please!

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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby karen nelson » August 14th, 2019, 3:45 pm

Can we get some experienced land use, transportation people East Site people on this committee now!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/news/ ... ar-AAFL4yU

karen nelson
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby karen nelson » August 14th, 2019, 3:46 pm

https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/news/ ... ar-AAFL4yU

"At McKnight Road and Larpenteur Avenue, the city of St. Paul plans to rezone a defunct golf course almost as large as the Twin Cities Ford Motor Co. campus in Highland Park. The plan is to make it ready for sale and redevelopment into housing, commerce and open space."

"Applications to join the Hillcrest Community Advisory Committee will be accepted through Sept. 6 at stpaul.gov/hillcrest."

karen nelson
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby karen nelson » August 14th, 2019, 3:47 pm

"The city is looking for five St. Paul residents, one or two Maplewood residents, a representative of the housing industry, someone who works in or advocates for multi-modal transportation, a business owner or staff member with a business association, and a member of the St. Paul Planning Commission."

karen nelson
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby karen nelson » November 1st, 2019, 2:41 pm

Wondering if they are considering any district energy options of this site. I mean, its starting from scratch more or less, why not -

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Tiller
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby Tiller » August 11th, 2020, 5:26 pm

I hate all 4 of these concepts for Hillcrest. They should not be putting all this "light industrial" here, and I really wish the port authority would stop trying to turn every development into industry.

Or at least all the development in East Saint Paul, which is disproportionately poor, immigrant, and POC. Perfect example of systemic racism, continuously putting industry into marginalized neighborhoods.

https://twitter.com/natehoodstp/status/ ... 79456?s=19

Mdcastle
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby Mdcastle » August 12th, 2020, 7:47 am

So "systematic racism" is putting a bunch of decent paying jobs within easy walking distance to marginalized neighborhoods?

uptownbro
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby uptownbro » August 12th, 2020, 8:16 am

I’m confused as well, would you rather they put offices or new housing developments there? Then wouldn’t that be gentrification. In the end someone will always complain about what is built I guess.

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Tiller
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby Tiller » August 12th, 2020, 1:56 pm

Yes, putting industry next to a neighborhood that has suffered from racially driven divestment is an example of systemic racism. A refinery has decent paying jobs, but that doesn't mean we should put one here. Blue collar jobs always get zoned into poor and POC neighborhoods.

If they are quality blue collar jobs, then usually most of the people that work there will not be from the neighborhood. They will be from nearby suburbs/exurbs. The neighbors in a situation like this are usually gatekept out of the good jobs of developments like this, though they are allowed to take the ones with poorer compensation/working conditions.

There are lots of existing jobs for all of us on the East Side, but the problem is they don't pay enough. And a more traditional denser urban development here would probably provide just as much jobs as suburban-style industry, but without the negative externalities of industry.

There's a reason why they aren't planning industrial space at the Ford Site, which was a factory. It's in a more affluent, whiter, neighborhood. But along E 7th/Arcade? And here? The Port Authority sees nothing wrong with zoning for industry because it's a poor neighborhood that "needs jobs".

Putting more Office/Housing/Commercial/whatever on the site wouldn't be gentrification. Some people over-use that term, but gentrification isn't happening here.

Mdcastle
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby Mdcastle » August 12th, 2020, 4:32 pm

Good thing we're talking about light industry instead of an oil refinery or a strawman factory or something then. Oil refineries have no place in city neighborhoods, so it's a good thing both of the ones in Minnesota are far from any kind of neighborhood

Seems like there's lots of complaining about how hard industrial jobs are for people in marginalized neighborhoods to reach via transit when we build them in Shakopee instead, like the new Cherne factory that will provide 115 jobs that people in marginalized neighborhoods will never be able to reach, so they'll have to be content with pouring coffee or mopping floors in the hipster coffee shops to serve the yuppies that move in once the neighborhood gentrifies.
https://www.startribune.com/opus-buildi ... 572089832/

We're not talking about industry on the Ford site because it's not attractive to industry because industry wants easy access to the freeway system for trucks instead of rail like the days gone by. Access to Ford is incredibly tedious on slow city streets. HillCrest it's a short, straight shot down a wide, fast moving four lane road with few signals.

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Tiller
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Re: Hillcrest golf course redevelopment site

Postby Tiller » August 13th, 2020, 12:52 am

Industrial jobs being built in exurban areas with no transit is a problem of sprawl. That isn't solved by bringing suburban sprawl into the central cities. That is solved by densifying currently developed areas and investing in our transit network. This redevelopment offers a great opportunity to do both. It's a false choice to say that either a neighborhood has to suck, or it has to gentrify.

The refinery was a more obvious example to make my point for you. There are places in real life still suffering from decisions like that, such as in Detroit. If making this an industrial area will have no negative external effects, then why not allow this harmless light industry as a part of mixed use developments inside a mixed use district instead? No need to separate out some big box suburban warehouses with moats of empty space and stroads. Just have housing above and partially screen it with active uses like housing or retail.

That Cherne factory has what, 115 jobs? Maybe 150 in five years according to that article if their growth plan pans out. That's for a 131k square foot facility on a 20 acre corner of land. We can do better than 7.5 jobs per acre. Even if the whole site was dedicated to industry, that would be 840 jobs for the 112 acre site. For comparison, there's 14k "working adults" within a mile of this site. Meanwhile the housing vacancy rate within a mile of this site is 3.9%. That statistic there will cause gentrification if not solved.

Mixed use development can easily provide more than 7.5 jobs per acre, even when employment isn't the primary aim of the development. There's nothing wrong with people working janitorial jobs or in food service. The only problem is that wages and benefits should be higher for that work, which policy can fix.

McKnight should definitely not be a wide, fast moving four lane road with few signals indefinitely into the future. That's another issue that local government policy has to fix.


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