Bloomington Central Station & South Loop Development

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min-chi-cbus
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby min-chi-cbus » November 13th, 2013, 4:25 pm

Really?!

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby HiawathaGuy » November 13th, 2013, 4:50 pm

Yes, really! Have you ever actually walked around the HealthPartner's building - or the McGough property? I used to work at HealthPartners - when they built the "central park" and the two 17 story towers. It's a no-mans land!

Sure I'd love to see a few more Toronto-style 17 story towers go up on this corner, but I'm not going to cry to see a 6 story 415 unit apartment, adding TONS of vibrancy and PEOPLE to this vast expanse of nothingness! We have to face the reality that there won't be a desire/need for 2,500 housing units on this property (as proposed in several tall towers). The market has changed! Downtown now seems to be the place for those, and that's perfect. Let Bloomington continue to increase it's density with infill projects.

This apartment complex, plus the 300-room hotel proposed immediately to the west are MUCH NEEDED for this area. Hopefully it's the catalyst this area needs to get another spec office tower going, and then phase II of this apartment complex. Imagine what nearly 900 new apartments will do for this area in the next 3-5 years! IMO, it's huge!

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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby mattaudio » November 13th, 2013, 9:20 pm

I'm all onboard with this. But does this neighborhood really be 650 car storage stalls?

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby min-chi-cbus » November 13th, 2013, 10:57 pm

I actually worked in that area, in the orangish buliding, but I don't like the design of this thing and considering what was originally envisioned to go into this space this is a far cry from that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: residents don't create vibrancy on their own.....usually it requires retail and or common areas like parks or plazas.

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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby mattaudio » November 14th, 2013, 8:07 am

The original plan for this area was a pipe dream that seemed very unrealistic. Who would want to live in a small neighborhood where you have planes landing overhead, MOA flanking one side, a freeway flanking the other, and six lane stroads as your neighborhood streets?

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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby HiawathaGuy » November 14th, 2013, 10:57 am

Who would want to live in a small neighborhood where you have planes landing overhead, MOA flanking one side, a freeway flanking the other, and six lane stroads as your neighborhood streets?
There are countless examples of apartment buildings/homes where this description fits... and people do live there. Just because you don't want to doesn't mean there aren't people who would and do. There are apartment buildings all around MOA, that were there long before the new runway and MOA. There are apartments along Hwy 77 and 494 - your comment could be made for all of those too. The coolest part about housing is that different people like different things! I think being a short walk from the Minnesota River, a 4 minute train ride to MOA, or 6 minutes to Terminal 1, or 28 minutes to downtown, etc. etc. make this place ideal for LOTS of people. Not to mention that freeway access is very convenient for someone who doesn't want to work downtown.

I live by the airport because I love having planes fly over my head. But I know that not everyone wants that. Doesn't mean that my house sucks. So similarly, (and for the record, no planes ever land over this plot of land, and rarely if ever have direct take-offs over it) this area is ideal for infill projects just like this one, and people will enjoy it. If people are willing to live in a 400-unit apartment complex in Cood Rapids, Eden Prairie, Plymouth, Inver Grove Heights, Shoreview... why wouldn't they want to live in one in Bloomington - near transit and so many other really cool things?

I think the way the building is planned to not have surface parking, while hiding the parking structure - while including unique outdoor spaces is very trend-setting. And not something you'd see happen at another suburban building. Not even the other huge complex happening in West Bloomington, where the ramp is clearly visible from 494.

Again, I wish the multiple towers that were 'envisioned' for this area would/could happen. But a lot has changed in the last 10 years. But that doesn't mean this is a bad solution for an empty spot.

I agree that people don't automatically cause vibrancy. But building retail before there are people doesn't really work either (look how long it's taken the out building at Cedar & 66th to fill). This isn't an end-all, cure-all solution - Bloomington Central Station is far from ideal. But projects like this will hopefully continue to help Bloomington continue to add density to areas that can handle it. Allowing for less sprawl further outside the inner ring suburbs.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby FISHMANPET » November 14th, 2013, 11:23 am

My lives in one of the apartments by MOA, and they're not... nice apartments. I wouldn't be surprised if they're cheap because of the location. Though it's actually incredibly inconvenient to get to the mall from her apartment, because the commercial to the south of the mall has blocked off any good walking connections to the mall from the apartments.

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woofner
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby woofner » November 14th, 2013, 12:33 pm

I've always found it inconvenient to drive in this area, too, since the streets are designed to handle the occasional enormous traffic event generated by the mall. Besides the extreme width, which I find disorienting but presumably one gets used to, the intersection density is therefore close to urban levels, so you end up stopping every eighth of a mile. Of course, Bloomington designs their streets specifically to discourage pedestrians, so you have the worst of both worlds.

I'm guessing these apartments will do well with people moving here from out-of-town, though, since it's a relatively central location. And the LRT is an actual convenience (I'd take it from this site to the Mall if I had a monthly pass - better than walking or driving).
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby HiawathaGuy » November 14th, 2013, 2:39 pm

I applaud Bloomington for their work in the Airport South area - the planning and implementation (given the many obstacles there; MOA and all its mass/craziness, multiple freeways, the airport, the river, etc.) are far better than 20 years ago.

Lindau Lane's extension, Bloomington Central Station's area planning, and the Penn/American Blvd's tranformation are all nice things to see happening in a sleepy first-ring suburb. It's not easy reinventing yourself, but I give them kudos for certainly trying.

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woofner
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby woofner » November 14th, 2013, 4:30 pm

I guess I disagree with just about everything you wrote here. Want to explain what's so cool about the Lindau Lane "extension", the South Loop small area plan, or what exactly has transformed about Penn/American (other than Wally's)? I will not even hear arguments for how a city of 85k with one of the strongest employment bases in the state can be called 'sleepy'.
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby HiawathaGuy » November 15th, 2013, 11:55 am

I guess I disagree with just about everything you wrote here. Want to explain what's so cool about the Lindau Lane "extension", the South Loop small area plan, or what exactly has transformed about Penn/American (other than Wally's)? I will not even hear arguments for how a city of 85k with one of the strongest employment bases in the state can be called 'sleepy'.
Well honestly, you disagreeing with me is the best part about people having different points of view.
IMO, the Lindau Lane extension will better connect the area, so it doesn't feel so disjointed. Something that has always been an issue, long before MOA in many respects. But 494/77/MOA/airport have only made it more difficult.
The South Loop plan calls for increased density, which I would think everyone on this board would be in favor of in some fashion. The same goes for the Penn/American planning. Not sure if you've been in the area lately - but adding hundreds of new housing/retail to an area that was mostly built in the 1950's-1970's, that tries to do a better job about walkability/transit are a huge change from 10-20 years ago.

Oh, and just because you don't to hear something doesn't mean that there isn't a debate to be had. Bloomington has been losing population as the baby boomers age and their tax base shrinks. They may have a high employment base, but that doesn't mean they can't be sleepy.

So I will say it again, I applaud them for trying to figure out how to reinvent themselves given the challenges that all cities face in today's ever changing and challenging times.

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woofner
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby woofner » November 15th, 2013, 1:55 pm

The Lindau Lane extension will only be useful for cars. Coming immediately off the freeway extension, cars will drive too fast for it to be useful for biking or walking. By demolishing some light industrial buildings, it will free up space for denser development. However, Bloomington has consistently shown that they're not willing to regulate new dense construction in a way that contributes to an area that feels like a neighborhood and can be enjoyed by people without a car. Penn American is an example - the new apartment building doesn't actually open onto Penn and interacts with it poorly. They're putting a strip mall on the corner and dollars to donuts it will be oriented towards the parking lot (as did Duluth Trading Co).

I don't think that Bloomington should be built to exclude cars, but as they add denser development they have to deal with the fact that more and more people will want to walk. That is simple reality. They will have to find a way to include those people who choose to walk, rather than exclude them as they currently do.

And sorry, but the word 'sleepy' actually denotes inactivity. An area literally cannot be inactive if it has tens of thousands of people moving in and out of it every day. Please find a different word. Stagnant? Aging?
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby Tom H. » November 15th, 2013, 1:57 pm

Not to nitpick, but...

It won't be 'immediately off the freeway extension' - I expect the new submerged section of Lindau to be somewhat effective at calming down to (what near MoA passes for) neighborhood speeds.

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woofner
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby woofner » November 15th, 2013, 2:03 pm

How do you expect that creating freeway-like conditions will cause people to drive at surface-level speeds? Remember, the underpass will remove pesky distractions like traffic signals, trees, sidewalks, etc.
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nordeast homer
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby nordeast homer » November 15th, 2013, 2:12 pm

There is a section of American Blvd that runs underneath 77 in a similar fashion and it seems to me that people are driving that section at normal speeds, they certainly aren't driving freeway speeds by any stretch. I get a lot more concerned walking through Uptown traffic than I ever would be concerned in this area.

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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby Wedgeguy » November 15th, 2013, 2:13 pm

There will be stop lights at at 24th and Linduea. There will most likely be stoplights or roundabouts that would also slow traffic down. There will be stoplights at Central Station intersection. This is no the Kingsfield neighborhood with a stop sign on every other cross street. There will not be a dedicated bike lane every few blocks. This is an area of commerce, light industry, and maybe some possible residential that would not conflict with the north/south runway.
Last edited by Wedgeguy on November 15th, 2013, 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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woofner
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby woofner » November 15th, 2013, 3:13 pm

The tendency to speed after exiting a freeway is a widely known phenomenon called speed adaptation:

http://www.scienceservingsociety.com/ts/text/ch08.htm

You should be familiar with it if you passed a driving test in the state of Minnesota. Most traffic on Lindau Lane will just have exited a freeway, most traffic on that American underpass has not.
This is no the Kingsfield neighborhood with a stop sign on every other cross street. There will not be a dedicated bike lane every few blocks. This is an area of commerce, light industry, and maybe some possible residential that would not conflict with the north/south runway.
Again, these aren't my goals, they're the city of Bloomington's. They are the ones who want denser development. They will need to create conditions that allow people to choose to walk if they want those developments to be successful. (I'll admit, though, that Bloomington's goals dovetail with my desire to have fewer people damaging my lungs by using cars to transport themselves and my desire for a more secure energy future by not wasting so much energy heating single-family homes.)
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby Tom H. » November 15th, 2013, 4:37 pm

I'm not disagreeing with you, woofner, on the principles you describe, just that they're not entirely applicable in this situation. The stoplight at IKEA will still exist (to my knowledge), and all traffic coming off of MN-77 onto Lindau goes on ramps with relatively tight turning radii, meaning most drivers are under 40 before they even get to the light.

It's not ever going to be a pleasant pedestrian street - it's still a STROAD - but I expect mean driving speeds will be closer to 30 than to 50.

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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby Wedgeguy » November 15th, 2013, 5:44 pm

Woofner I put you in charge of timing the light at 24th and Lindau so it is always red when the Ikea lake is green on Lindau so there will not be thru traffic.

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Tcmetro
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Re: Bloomington Central Station - Bloomington

Postby Tcmetro » November 21st, 2013, 10:04 am

The largest change in the plan is the residential portion. There will still be the same amount of units as previously proposed, however, they will be in two shorter buildings. The office proposal (six 8-10 story buildings) and the parking ramps remain the same.

Renders and information here:

http://www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/pccases/02830FGHI13.pdf


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