Penn and American - Bloomington

[sdho]

Which superblock? The American-82nd/Penn-Knox block has already started to be broken up with two new east-west streets. Future plans also call for a break-up in the northern block with future redevelopment Southtown -- a new 79th St and a new Newton(?) Ave north-south: http://www.minnpost.com/sites/default/f ... n-plan.png.

One other improvement that is likely in the coming years is a bike/ped/transit underpass at Knox Avenue for the Orange Line. This will significantly improve the connection to Best Buy and the housing across 494.

[sdho]

In last week's Star Trib:

Orange Line bus route is key to Southtown's future - http://www.startribune.com/local/south/289642801.html

Current plans call for a major transit hub at Southtown, with the line running on Knox Avenue through the heart of the shopping center. Southtown’s owner would prefer to see the line skirt the eastern edge of the property, closer to Interstate 35W.

“We’re still at an impasse as to what’s going to happen with the Orange Line,” said Ken Vinje, director of properties and redevelopment for Kraus-Anderson Realty. “If the Orange Line is going to come through, we’re just saying, in essence, go around us."

Technically Knox Avenue is privately owned between 78th St/Southtown Dr and American Blvd. I guess their proposed routing would turn right on 81st, go under the American Blvd overpass, curve around, and then turn on a new Knox underpass towards Best Buy. This would mean no service to American Blvd itself and the only service at all in the Penn-American district would be a frontage road.

Why the owner of valuable commercial property wouldn't want 15-minute, all-day service to downtown as convenient as possible to their customers is beyond me.

[mattaudio]

Why the owner of valuable commercial property wouldn't want 15-minute, all-day service to downtown as convenient as possible to their customers is beyond me.

Exactly - wouldn't they want to have the transit stop in the middle of their property, and tightly integrated with the land use, to help maximize value of their property?

[FISHMANPET]

Because it will be express busses full of urban thugs being brought to their doorstep every 15 minutes all day.

I mean, I realize that's not true, but people exist in this world that believe that.

[acs]

Also parking lots are sacred land to be preserved against the encroachment by evil pedestrians.

[MNdible]

They may have a (somewhat legitimate) fear that their parking will be used by hide-and-riders.

[sdho]

They may have a (somewhat legitimate) fear that their parking will be used by hide-and-riders.

Good point, but I'm not sure moving it to the frontage road would prevent that any better. I believe in the long run there's an American-Knox public P&R planned. Don't think it's being done as part of the initial Orange Line build-out, though.

[twincitizen]

I guess I was under the impression that a P&R at American was always part of the initial plan, even if just a surface lot at first. Parking would become structured as the district develops. Of course, in the interim they can continue using the P&R next to Best Buy HQ, or perhaps could use it indefinitely now that there's going to be a stop on that side of the freeway. Adding the 76th/Knox stop really changes the P&R math here. Perhaps Metro Transit won't try to build a massive P&R at American since the Best Buy HQ P&R will remain served by the line (something that was not initially forecast with the original plans for a station in the 35W median).

[sdho]

Knox P&R is slated to be largely wiped out by collector-distributor roads for the 494/35W interchange (and possibly stormwater detention for a new interchange?). But AFAIK the short-term flyover from NB 35W to WB 494/5 won't build out that whole road, so Knox P&R can probably continue to be used in the immediate term.

I recall a Metro Transit rep telling me that they expect the combined Best Buy and Penn-American districts to be some shockingly high percentage of ridership -- 50 or 70%. Hence the willingness to take the buses offline for a good ways here.

[RailBaronYarr]

They may have a (somewhat legitimate) fear that their parking will be used by hide-and-riders.

Couldn't they handle it like the commercial strip at the SWT station in EP does? Regardless of if there's a ramp there, someone is clearly monitoring that lot to make sure people aren't parking all day in the surface lots serving the restaurants/etc.

[Anondson]

Major progress.

http://www.startribune.com/agreement-re ... 315141711/

KA has stepped back their rhetoric against the city plan and zoning. Agreements have been signed letting Southtown redevelop slowly towards the city goals. KA even has pleas for a transit oriented redevelopment along Knox that might include a hotel.

[twincitizen]

Yes, but they still want Knox (the bus underpass) routed around the east side of their property so the hotel development can be on a superblock with Southtown: http://www.metrocouncil.org/METC/files/ ... df2d61.pdf (pages 3-5)

It's a terrible idea. They're really making too much of this supposed "barrier" that a Knox Ave underpass would create here.

[HiawathaGuy]

Yes, but they still want Knox (the bus underpass) routed around the east side of their property so the hotel development can be on a superblock with Southtown: http://www.metrocouncil.org/METC/files/ ... df2d61.pdf (pages 3-5)

It's a terrible idea. They're really making too much of this supposed "barrier" that a Knox Ave underpass would create here.

I couldn't agree more! The weird loop-de-loop around this "proposed" hotel development is beyond dumb! I hope that the City of Bloomington and Met Council plant their foot firmly against this mistake.

[sdho]

Agree as well. MTC has been very clear that regular passenger cars will not be allowed on this -- just buses, bikes, pedestrians. Is one bus every 10 minutes really divisive? I suspect the parking lot sees more frequent vehicles than that.

[MNdible]

Agree as well. MTC has been very clear that regular passenger cars will not be allowed on this -- just buses, bikes, pedestrians. Is one bus every 10 minutes really divisive? I suspect the parking lot sees more frequent vehicles than that.

The issue is that the roadway is dropping relative to the surrounding grade because it eventually needs to pass beneath 494 (see the section cuts on page 4 of the PDF linked to above). So it is a real divide, and it will make the land on the other side of it much less attractive for redevelopment. The capital costs for this reroute are probably not huge, as the expensive parts (tunnels and retaining walls) exist in both layouts, and the added travel time is probably less than 20 seconds. Seems like there are better things we could be getting our panties in a bunch about.

[sdho]

But if you look at the layout shown, I see an on-grade crosswalk shown at roughly half-way through the possible hotel building. And besides, it looks like the entire hotel is routed toward the east (although that design could of course change).

It's not just the 20 seconds, but the whole transit experience. This was originally proposed as a single on-line stop at American Blvd. It's already going significantly out of its way to accommodate the abysmal walking environment around the 35W/494 interchange. 20 more seconds (and being hurled around on the "light rail on rubber tires" bus through a few more curves) is important.

[sdho]

For those who haven't had a chance to check out the Penn-American redevelopment in person, I did a quick walking tour on Twitter... https://twitter.com/search?q=%40sdho+%2 ... n&src=typd

General conclusions: 80th 1/2 is awesome, 81st is great on one side. Penn gains nice frontage but no functional entrances. American gains little, but better than the former car dealership lot.

[min-chi-cbus]

Looks suburban.

[sdho]

Well, I think the attempt, at best, is "drivable new urbanist" -- and maybe more realistically, "less unwalkable suburban".

80th 1/2 and 81st were pretty impressive. It's not as good at as Excelsior & Grand or the like, but it's pretty good for Bloomington. I think a big problem is simply that Bloomington's parking requirements are completely over-the-top. I need to dig up my notes comparing the different cities, but I believe for restaurants and retail, Bloomington's parking requirement is something like double Richfield's, and four times MInneapolis's. More people drive in Bloomington than Minneapolis -- but nowhere near 4x as many.

The other big barrier is that American Blvd and Penn Ave are not remotely destroaded. Unfortunately, the Penn-American Master Plan envisions making it an even more dangerous place for pedestrians, by adding a fourth high-speed free right turn at the Penn & American intersection.

A future extension of 80th 1/2 to Knox (and the Orange Line BRT station) would increase the transit potential a lot. 20 minutes, one seat, to downtown with frequencies every 10-15 mins. That beats the Blue Line on time significantly (but probably not travel experience).

[maxbaby]

Looks suburban.

Bloomington IS suburban.