Penn and American - Bloomington

[mattaudio]

That's what zoning reform is about, not forcing an auto-dependent land use. The market does the rest.

[EOst]

Pretty sure the people who own Southtown aren't pushing for parking lots because of the zoning.

[mattaudio]

Of course they're not. They have a good thing going, with their land use being immensely subsidized by massive stroads, bridges, freeway interchanges, and expensive stoplights. And a property tax, rather than a land value tax, that disincentivizes the highest and best use of land. And from a state-levied sales tax which disconnects the feedback loop of the actual public revenue from a shopping center from the public expenditure to serve it. So, Kraus Anderson could be considered a parasite feeding on the host public in this area.

[Archiapolis]

Of course they're not. They have a good thing going, with their land use being immensely subsidized by massive stroads, bridges, freeway interchanges, and expensive stoplights. And a property tax, rather than a land value tax, that disincentivizes the highest and best use of land. And from a state-levied sales tax which disconnects the feedback loop of the actual public revenue from a shopping center from the public expenditure to serve it. So, Kraus Anderson could be considered a parasite feeding on the host public in this area.

Wait, public infrastructure is subsidized?! Thanks Obama!

[RailBaronYarr]

Maybe someone can shed light here. It seems like the proposed zoning changes would only have mattered when the area is re-developed, right? As in, current land-uses are grandfathered in. Unless the Orange Line or other project constituted a gov't-imposed 're-development' (which very well could be the case), owners could keep it as-is for quite some time. As woofner states, I can't believe KA wouldn't want some diversification (along with additional revenues) if all it takes to keep serving the driver-shoppers happy is structured parking (that's slightly less accessible than today's setup)...

[woofner]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't think the proposed new zoning districts would have restricted the amount of parking at all, and only directly impact parking by requiring it be located behind the principal structure. It seems to me like the changes would have mostly affected the allowable forms and intensities, and only a few uses would have been restricted in some of the parcels (looks like auto-oriented uses would be restricted in most of the area and some of the parcels in the south of the district that are currently zoned R1 would no longer allow single unit residences).

So this issue really isn't about parking or convenience to motorists, is it?

Here are the supporting docs for the planning commission item:

http://74.208.147.253:8080/agenda/cityo ... select=582

[MNdible]

If you increase the intensity of a land use by, say, four times, you're going to have to increase the parking supplied by a corresponding (if somewhat lesser) amount. The upshot of this is that you'd need to provide significant structured parking.

Which really shouldn't be that big of a deal, but it's expensive, and it makes it more likely that you'd need to have one big master-planned solution, as opposed to making improvements bite-by-bite. And figuring out how to integrate large floorplate retail (as opposed to a little cafe or something) into mixed use developments isn't something that there are a lot of great precedents for.

Also, fair or not, I think there's a perception that surface parking is easier, or more convenient, for shoppers, etc.

So it may be sort of silly, but I suspect that at least a significant amount of this is about parking.

[woofner]

Right, but parking is really just a tangible representative for change in general. It's admirable that Bloomington has recognized that they should demand a minimum intensity of use for their most valuable resource, their land, but if I'm reading it right, the minimum will still mostly be around .4 or .5 FAR. The pushback is probably mostly about KA being used to getting their way, and secondarily a protest against more prescriptive codes, with parking being the most important touchstone of their argument.

[mattaudio]

According to Eric Roper: "The MN Auto Dealers Association paid for robocalls to garner opposition to a plan to make Bloomington more walkable."

[blobs]

Major lol after eading the hundreds of Strib comments--I never knew so many people loved this crappy mall! What completely baffles me is there is a much better mall (southdale) with a nice SuperTarget next door, just up the road., yet people voluntarily come here? Let's face it, the Target at Penn American is quite sad.

[mister.shoes]

SuperTargets are great if you need groceries AND everything else Target has to offer. However, my wife and I have found that this "sad" Target at Southtown actually has some cool things that neither the Edina nor Richfield SuperTargets has. I'm not sure why exactly that is, but I like it a lot.

The rest of Southtown...eh. Yes, it's proven useful for us on numerous occasions, but a properly redeveloped multi-use version of Southtown with many of the same stores would be a better use of the land. I see no reason that BBB, Herberger's, Kohl's, etc. couldn't co-exist with something much better.

[sdho]

I don't buy my groceries at Target either, but I also find the Penn/American Target really odd given proximity to Southdale Target. Southdale Target and Richfield/Cedar Point are much more crowded, but other than that they seem newer, nicer, more offerings.

And I find the Southtown BB&B's proximity to human civilization of any kind similarly baffling. A miserable store whose products I can get cheaper on Amazon, or with more fun at the Container Store.

But for what it's worth, the Southdale Container Store manages to be in a (relatively speaking) walkable development, with ramp parking and access to Centennial Lakes. So assuming the BB&Bs of the world stay in business, I see no reason why big boxes and somewhat pleasant somewhat urban environments can't coexist.

[sdho]

I have gone to Southtown for Schuler Shoes, though. However, I am definitely going to Schuler Shoes despite it being in Southtown, not because of it. I'd probably much prefer the new Highland store, although Southtown is closer.

[Mdcastle]

Going to Southtown I can park more or less right in front of the store I'm going to; going to Southdale it's a bigger production than I like between walking across the huge parking lot and then across the mall. And Bloomington Target is a lot closer to the freeway and I get my groceries at Walmart, so I don't need a SuperTarget.

I'm not a teenage girl so the prospect of wandering an enclosed mall holds zero attraction for me if I can get in and out in a strip mall a lot faster (do teenagers even still hang out at malls nowadays?)

[VAStationDude]

Wouldn't want to waste two minutes walking when that could be better spent with olde timey stop lights

[PhilmerPhil]

Man, mdcastle. As much as what you post is totally against my life goals and standards, I really envy your honesty and your lack of being out of touch of 89% of the rest of America.

Seriously. Thank you for continuing to post in this echo chamber and bringing the perspective of how the other half lives.

[sdho]

Going to Southtown I can park more or less right in front of the store I'm going to; going to Southdale it's a bigger production than I like between walking across the huge parking lot and then across the mall.

Seems like the ideal setup, then, is what the Penn/American plan envisions, and what's already been implemented in the ground-floor retail of the "Genesee" apartments: short-term on-street parking right in front of the door, with structured parking or auxiliary parking for longer-term uses. Or on a similar tact (but with too much structured parking and not enough on-street parking) at West End in SLP.

It is great to be able to run into the store and grab something -- 15-30 minute on-street parking zones actually facilitate that better than almost any parking lot, even at a smaller mall like Southtown.

[David Greene]

Man, mdcastle. As much as what you post is totally against my life goals and standards.

Huh. This recent post struck me as exactly the kinds of things I hate too: walking across large parking lots and wandering through malls looking for a store I forgot was on the other side from where I parked. I can't stand malls.

It's interesting how people with very different outlooks can come to hate the same things. It speaks to the universality of the terribleness of this development pattern.

[blobs]

I actually like Southdale; it is not bad when you park on the York side, and it is pretty compact.

[blobs]

So at Penn American is it possible to make the superblock smaller? How can that be done?