Southdale Area - Edina

[ztr421]

The example image of that RH building is horrifying. Like a giant Tuscan Spanish Southern France McMansion.

Years ago I sort of liked Restoration Hardware. Then they went through their format change and I visited the remodeled store at the Galleria and the furniture was all gigantic! Like yuuuuge! The couches are so deep they're like a sideways twin bed.

Hence the need for a 4-story gallery store, I guess.

[Anondson]

Yeah, the exclusive photos in the article are basically a Google Image search for RH Gallery.

[seanrichardryan]

I'll just put this here.

http://www.startribune.com/like-your-ca ... 384286841/

[Anondson]

I mean, he's not wrong about cars being liked and used by a lot of people, but urbanists and new urbanists aren't designing for neighborhoods without cars. They are trying for neighborhood and streets where cars are not the primary (and maybe only) concern.

Maybe he was writing trolling satire?

[Mdcastle]

Not trolling. When urbanists throw out buzzwords like "sprawl" or "walkability" or "sustainability", that leads other people to believe they have a fundamental hatred of cars and houses and want to force everyone to live in an apartment within walking distance of a grocery store like you would in Europe.

[twincitizen]

James Lileks' style of writing is arguably a version of trolling. Being sassy and quasi-contrarian is his thing. He also happens to be a pretty good writer. People who haven't read him before (or maybe didn't see his name on the byline) are usually a little put off by his articles until you get a feel for his unique style.

That said, headlines are often written by editorial staff to get clicks, even if they misrepresent the article/column's tone (though I'm not sure that's the case here).

The Southdale district is very rapidly morphing from a standard suburban mall area into the region's finest example of "drivable urbanism". The greater Southdale area has had dense condos and apartments within reasonable walking distance of "stuff to walk to" since the 1960s (actually I think you can find residential buildings from each of the last 6 decades). What's changing now is that the newest buildings are being built closer to the mall itself than ever before, and the huge parking moat is being filled in. The city is also actively adding/widening sidewalks and improving safety at crossings. What hasn't changed is that driving is no more difficult than in the past: the roads are wide and off-street parking at businesses remains plentiful as ever.

[min-chi-cbus]

I'll share that sentiment (drivably-urban) once the Fred Richards and Pentagon Park areas get underway/built. Right now it's highly suburban, although there are small pockets of new urbanism here and there (mainly Centennial Lakes). I like the area somewhat but I still think it has a ways to go before it becomes truly walkable (and as someone who has lived there with small children). IMO the most urban part of Edina -- by far -- is 50th & France.

[RailBaronYarr]

I'll just say that this piece felt a lot less 'dripping with sarcasm' with far fewer winks and nods to the people he's kind of making fun of than other pieces he's written.

I agree with his point that most people don't care about aesthetics as much as the pro-urban crowd typically say we all do. But, uh, what percent of "New Urbanists" (lol) aren't mostly pleased with what's going on at places like West End or Southdale? Aside from exasperated twitter remarks, who has ever wanted to banish cars? This post felt more like an actual "war on cars" one than a "war on cars (wink, lol)" one, which, whatever!

[VacantLuxuries]

I agree with his point that most people don't care about aesthetics as much as the pro-urban crowd typically say we all do.

But they all become architectural critics when discussing Riverside Towers.

[sdho]

IMO the most urban part of Edina -- by far -- is 50th & France.

I guess the question is whether the setback and building appearance is more important, or what is *in* the buildings. Two blocks of France Ave -- 49XX and 50XX -- are traditionally urban in character, and that's it. The Southdale District has drastically higher density, with more public space, and many more daily functional amenities (Walgreens/CVS, Target, Cub).

The last large single-use suburban project that comes to mind is Target -- and even that has one of the best walk-up experiences around for the suburban-format Targets. The Westin, York Place/CVS, Byerly's/71France, Onyx Aprtments, Centennial Shops, One Southdale, etc are all "driveably urban".

[min-chi-cbus]

And 50th & France is truly walkable, which I cannot say about the denser, park-ridden Southdale area.

[twincitizen]

True story: I recently parked at Southdale near the movie theater (bought our tickets early), then walked under/through Galleria to grab a couple things at Target. Really easy walk. The infrastructure is not perfect, but it was no worse than crossing a busy street in Minneapolis. And the promenade path is both beautiful and practical. The greater Southdale area is more walkable than anyone thinks (though generally beginning at the mall and working south from there, staying between York & France). I haven't really ever had to cross any of the county roads on foot, and I'm sure it's not the best (though it is getting better).

[RailBaronYarr]

So here's the question we should always be asking ourselves: what actually matters? Yes, 50th and France is more traditionally walkable - smaller blocks, buildings fronting sidewalks, etc. And it does have neighborhood-serving amenities (grocery, cinema, coffee, pharmacy, many banks, a post office, to say nothing of the value of having regional-ish shops/restaurants close by). But, what are we fighting for? What percent of 50th/France visitors arrive on foot or transit compared to the greater Southdale area? Are we fighting for mode share (in a roundabout way of reducing emissions)? Stormwater runoff? Transportation safety? The ability for as many people who want to at as many price points as possible to live nearby? Percent of locally owned businesses? We could go on, there are a million performance metrics people might care about. I'd rank Southdale higher on some of those metrics, and 50th and France higher on others.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say even if we built a light rail connecting downtown, Uptown, Linden Hills, 50th/France, and Southdale - and even buried it under 50th/France - and then made major improvements to the 46 and extended the Minnehaha Creek trail westward and improved on-street bike facilities, and then upzone the hell out of 50th/France... Southdale would still outpace 50th/France in residential and commercial growth. (but we should still totally do all those things)

[twincitizen]

I agree with all of those things, and we should do them all. But (in addition to your points) Southdale would outpace other areas in growth mostly because it has an abundance of parking lots / underutilized land on which to build. The Southdale district is already fairly dense and amenity-rich for a suburban area. It is going to be so much more so in a few short years once a few more big apartment projects are complete, particularly the ones at 66th & York, dramatically changing the character of a major gateway into the area. Walkscore in the Southdale area (incl. nearby western Richfield) already outpaces most of Minneapolis (aside from the obvious areas like Downtown, Uptown, U, etc.)

[min-chi-cbus]

True story: I recently parked at Southdale near the movie theater (bought our tickets early), then walked under/through Galleria to grab a couple things at Target. Really easy walk. The infrastructure is not perfect, but it was no worse than crossing a busy street in Minneapolis. And the promenade path is both beautiful and practical. The greater Southdale area is more walkable than anyone thinks (though generally beginning at the mall and working south from there, staying between York & France). I haven't really ever had to cross any of the county roads on foot, and I'm sure it's not the best (though it is getting better).

I guess my experience as a resident of the area was different than your experience, but I also lived north of 66th street, which is a devil to cross -- especially with a stroller/baby. I wish the city would do something about 66th to make it easier for a large population of residents to walk within the district. I agree though that the promenade makes it a LOT easier to navigate between those blocks in the middle.

[Anondson]

Is Centennial Lakes still "Southdale Area"?

Highlighting article on how it is a model development to some.

http://www.startribune.com/centennial-l ... 387872212/

[Anondson]

With Barnes and Noble relocating to the south side (remodeling underway right now) the space being vacated will be redeveloped and expanded.

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/n ... plans.html

The expansion calls for another restaurant with more retail spaces. The east wing expansion will add spaces out towards 69th, building on half of the existing surface parking to do so. The mall owner went to the city for a variance to build a Porte Corchere (canopy) from the new entrance on the north end of the east wing out over the pavement to the sidewalk on the south side of 69.

The east expansion will finally extend the sidewalk from the existing crossing at 69th all the way to the mall. The city requested better wayfinding be done to direct customers to the vastly underused parking ramp and to calm the "road" separating the ramp from the mall. Connecting the sidewalk crossing to the mall is a nice small thing I can't believe wasn't already done, and calming the traffic on the road between the ramp and mall was a smart demand.

By my reading of the meeting agendas, apparently because a variance was needed for the Porte Corchere the city insisted those little improvements be added to the east expansion.

Interesting the article notes that Restoration Hardware was in conversations with both the owner of Galleria and the owner of Southdale Center to build its four level concept. I had understood that only Galleria was considered for expansion. Restoration Hardware notes their space will be vacant in 2018.

I'm trying to imagine where Simon would fit a four story RH Gallery in Southdale Center. I can't see it fitting in the middle at all well. Maybe it could fit out in the southwest corner, separate from the main mall? I remember when Southdale was adding the AMC wing with the restaurants out the south that there was some talk to link it to Galleria. Maybe you could fit a four story RH Gallery on the outside of the main mall, right on the little parking lot on the south side of the AMC theater directly across 69th from Galleria.

[Squidward]

Yeah, saw this too. The new addition looks decent. Did not know B&N was moving to the south side - is that new 2-story glass addition for them? Also, saw that the plans illustrate a small car dealer shop just across from the Galleria ramp, with a driveway for automobile explicitly stated on the blueprint. Would not be surprised if Tesla was trying to move in to Galleria - in fact, the shop is shown in Teslas classic red.

I am also intrigued by the mystery of the new RH location. The mention of Simon in this bizjournals article has thrown me way off. The added Gabberts relocation (where?) is another mystery.

[Anondson]

$100 million project proposed across France from Southdale Center.

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/n ... entre.html

[acs]

That looks like way more than $100m to me.