Southdale Area Development - Edina

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Multimodal » March 18th, 2018, 7:07 am

sdho wrote:Also there is simply something wrong in a system that allows developments like Shake Shack basically as of right but requires comprehensive plan amendments (that they fail to get) for something like Estelle.
Estelle would’ve been much better 1 block east of where it was proposed. While I don’t insist on needing a perfect gradient of height & density (missing middle, etc.), 20+ stories pretty much next door to single family homes was a bit extreme.

Also, some parts of Estelle struck me as very suburban for the Southdale area. The base/platform was very low (why not 4-6 stories?), it seemed to emphasize car access over pedestrian/bicycle/transit (surface parking with access to the building oriented towards it internally), and renderings seemed to pretend that people would enjoy walking on sidewalks adjacent to France.

It was good density with a beautiful building, but it wasn’t perfect.

As far as Comp Plan amendments go, I think Edina’s leaders should be firmer with neighborhoods and say that height preferences are OK in the Comp Plan (small area plans, e.g.), but height limitations are not. That will get zoning in its rightful place—the zoning map/ordinance—and out of a *planning* document, where it doesn’t belong.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Multimodal » March 18th, 2018, 7:11 am

Anondson wrote:Shadows are traumatic to single family homes and rivers, lanes and parks.
Residents installing solar panels to demonstrate harm in shadows in 3, 2, 1…

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Anondson » March 18th, 2018, 7:36 am

The Estelle shadows would have lingered over a neighbors panels for maybe less than 30 minutes in the early morning in winter as they moved with the sun.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Multimodal » March 18th, 2018, 8:02 am

Anondson wrote:The Estelle shadows would have lingered over a neighbors panels for maybe less than 30 minutes in the early morning in winter as they moved with the sun.
Think of the economic harm!

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Silophant » March 18th, 2018, 9:05 am

Early morning in winter is when the panels are most efficient! They'll never pay for themselves if they're shaded then!

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby sdho » March 19th, 2018, 11:49 am

Multimodal wrote:
March 18th, 2018, 7:07 am
sdho wrote:Also there is simply something wrong in a system that allows developments like Shake Shack basically as of right but requires comprehensive plan amendments (that they fail to get) for something like Estelle.
Estelle would’ve been much better 1 block east of where it was proposed. While I don’t insist on needing a perfect gradient of height & density (missing middle, etc.), 20+ stories pretty much next door to single family homes was a bit extreme.
"Next to" is a little bit of an exaggeration, although I know people used it. It is the first adjacent private land use, but the actual distance (if I remember correctly) was over 400' from the edge of the tower (the lowest portion) to a single-family lot line. There is a large berm and a wide right-of-way, plus the back of the site had only lower items. Remember, a standard Minneapolis grid block is 300'; it was over a block away.

I think it's also a little obnoxious, since Edina has not been shy about lining Xerxes Avenue with buildings between 6 and 10 stories (much shorter than Estelle, but I think after you get over 4, it all feels "tall" from a 1-story rambler). It does not personally bother me, but I know neighbors on the east/Richfield side of Xerxes were not happy about it. If Edina finds relatively high density there (Envi Edina over 100 du/acre) acceptable there, they should eat their own dog food and be OK with it on the west side of France. In the discussions around the previous 7200 France project, Mayor Hovland rightly called out this hypocrisy.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby sdho » March 20th, 2018, 2:00 pm

Via Penn Central of Richfield on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PennCentralofR ... 7800384116

I guess no doubt at all that it is a full demolition of JC Penney.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Multimodal » March 28th, 2018, 9:54 pm

The Planning Commission approved increases in height & density to allow a 19-story, 182-unit development at the Guitar Center site (Hazelton Apartments, a luxury tower by the people who did Nic at 5th).

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Anondson » March 28th, 2018, 10:06 pm

Nice.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby sdho » March 28th, 2018, 10:55 pm

Multimodal wrote:
March 28th, 2018, 9:54 pm
The Planning Commission approved increases in height & density to allow a 19-story, 182-unit development at the Guitar Center site (Hazelton Apartments, a luxury tower by the people who did Nic at 5th).
Hoping this isn't a repeat of Estelle, where PC makes the pro-growth move and is shot down by Council. Despite not being on the controversial "West Side of France", this is a similar distance from York Plaza Apartments, Sunrise of Edina, and much closer to 71 France compared to Estelle's proximity to houses west of Valley View. But, presumably fear of occasional, brief shadows doesn't apply to these residents.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Multimodal » March 28th, 2018, 11:39 pm

While it is spring break, there was nonetheless not a single resident there to speak against (or for) the project.

Though the Council does seem to be ignoring the PC’s wishes lately. It’s perfectly fine for a council to ignore a PC’s vote once in a while. Commissions are advisory, after all. If it starts happening consistently, though, there could be a problem.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Squidward » March 29th, 2018, 6:37 am

Thanks for the update. This is great news. The Edina water tower and Westin will have a new buddy in the skyline.
A sign outside the Guitar Center says "moving to Bloomington in April."

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Multimodal » March 29th, 2018, 6:42 am

Interesting tidbits I heard recently:

The “Southdale Area” (which by city definitions has recently been broadened to include a southern leg that goes out to the old Pentagon Park) could be home to 20,000 residents when fully re-built at planned densities (Southdale Area Plan). The entire city is currently about 50,000 residents.

This area is twice the land area of downtown Mpls. (Not sure how that’s defined, but still.)



So I’m wondering how one plans internal as well as external transit when you have a downtown-like area in the middle of SFHs. At these densities, cars are not the answer. How much does the city do vs. Metro Transit? What are Metro Transit’s plans for all this density the core cities and first-ring suburbs are adding?

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby DanPatchToget » March 29th, 2018, 6:53 am

Multimodal wrote:
March 29th, 2018, 6:42 am
So I’m wondering how one plans internal as well as external transit when you have a downtown-like area in the middle of SFHs. At these densities, cars are not the answer. How much does the city do vs. Metro Transit? What are Metro Transit’s plans for all this density the core cities and first-ring suburbs are adding?
From Metro Transit/Met Council there are currently no plans for any substantial transit improvements in the area, only minor improvements to existing bus routes. American Blvd. ABRT would be so close, but not in the area. I seriously question their logic when France Avenue ABRT isn't even being discussed.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Anondson » March 29th, 2018, 8:07 am

Where the district’s current population? Just trying to get a grasp on how much is imagined to be added.

I recall hearing a complainer say that Southdale shouldn’t get more residences because the area between 66th, Xerxes, France, and TH 62 was one of the most resident-dense neighborhoods in the state.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Multimodal » March 29th, 2018, 8:31 am

DanPatchToget wrote:From Metro Transit/Met Council there are currently no plans for any substantial transit improvements in the area, only minor improvements to existing bus routes. American Blvd. ABRT would be so close, but not in the area. I seriously question their logic when France Avenue ABRT isn't even being discussed.
Yeah, France (and York) need a big re-think from the city, the county, and Metro Transit—it can’t continue to be the street sewer it is today if we want truly comfortable walking, biking, & multimodal transit to take the pressure off cars as the only source of movement.

I suppose with all the 10-year comprehensive plan updates each city is doing now, Metro Transit/Met Council will start some major planning next year into how transportation will need to change. Edina’s looking for significantly more density in Southdale as well as its other 4 neighborhood nodes; meanwhile, Mpls with it’s duplexes-for-everyone and density-along-transit-corridors proposals means lots more concentrated density.

We live in interesting times.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby Multimodal » March 29th, 2018, 8:35 am

Anondson wrote:Where the district’s current population? Just trying to get a grasp on how much is imagined to be added.
Well, looking at the neighborhood maps the city puts out, all the Southdale/Edinborough/Centennial/Parklawn/Pentagon areas are combined about 5500 people.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby nordeast homer » March 29th, 2018, 10:27 am

I'm curious to see what, if anything, happens with the Pentagon Park properties in the next 5 - 10 years. We've now had 2 different companies fail at getting anything out of the ground. We had a pseudo proposal for Allina that seems to be dying on the vine. We've had 3 master plans in the last 5 years and still nothing.
Properties are being developed and rehabbed all around this area, but Pentagon seems to be ignored... Just in the year we've had OATI, a new school, soon to be opening Twin Cities Ortho, the old Alpha Video building is being rehabbed, MN Center announced a development in their front yard, and Western National Ins. moved into the 4700 bldg. A lot for a relatively small area.

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby sdho » March 29th, 2018, 4:50 pm

Everything seems to be on a really audacious scale. But honestly, I don't totally see the appeal for development there with so much underutilized land still available in the more immediate Southdale area. For residential -- living on or near France/York gets you a lot closer to a lot more things. For commercial or office, France seems to be a more recognizable and prestigious address than 77th/Industrial Blvd. The only things Pentagon Park have that are better are what Fred Richards Park *might* become, and easier freeway access.

(And I say this as someone who works by choice right in this area, in the coworking space in the Burgundy Place building)

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Re: Southdale Area Development - Edina

Postby iMad » March 30th, 2018, 10:08 am

I mostly lurk on this site but I have some insight into the Pentagon Park office redevelopment because I'm a tenant in the 4600 building (the western most refurbished building). Hillcrest has two redevelopments by two development partners in the pipeline currently. Office, hotel, and maybe a small amount of retail on the south parcel below 77th (the area that has already been cleared), although they said this one has a slight potential to fall through. Market rate and senior apartments on the western side of the north parcel above West 77th.

They've stopped renewing leases in our building, because it will be demoed in the second phase of the apartment development, and started renovations on a couple floors of the 4510 building to relocated tenants from our building. We should know in the next 30 to 60 days if the apartments are moving forward.

Their current plan is to rip down 4660 and 4640 and start construction of the first phase of apartments this summer, if it moves forward with the city. Once those are completed they'll rip down 4620 and 4600 for phase two of the apartments. The city is also planning on relocating the Fred Richards access road to east of the 4600 building heading North from West 77th sometime this year.


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