South St. Paul and West St. Paul

[Nick]

I'm dicking around a bit in ArcGIS (I feel like a GOD) working on something, and I'm noticing for the first time that there are really a lot of good urban bones extending along the Mississippi past St. Paul clear down to the actual edge where agricultural land starts. Has there ever been any real consideration of east metro transit investment that hits these areas? Sure as hell beats $469 million of BRT out to Lake Elmo.

(I realize I'm thinking out loud to myself)

[acs]

Like the red rock corridor?

[Nick]

Moreso the other side of the river, though yeah there is that.

[Mikey]

I'm dicking around a bit in ArcGIS (I feel like a GOD) working on something, and I'm noticing for the first time that there are really a lot of good urban bones extending along the Mississippi past St. Paul clear down to down the actual edge where agricultural land starts. Has there ever been any real consideration of east metro transit investment that hits these areas? Sure as hell beats $469 million of BRT out to Lake Elmo.

(I realize I'm thinking out loud to myself)

Well, the Robert Street study is looking at BRT, aBRT and streetcar options for Robert St or LRT along Hwy 52 (although I think that was ruled out). That's all I know about. Concord could probably use an aBRT upgrade in the future - South St Paul was starting to look into a TOD for the area just south of 494, and the area around Grand is ripe for redevelopment as well

[mattaudio]

I get the feeling Nick is talking about the Concord Street corridor through SSP and beyond. Which is rather dense. SSP is one of those old towns that developed with the traditional development pattern, akin to a Hopkins or an Anoka. It has classic housing stock and urban bones, and could definitely play up this potential to attract people who want urban living lite. A good transit connection could really make SSP and even IGH pop as urban nodes along Concord. The 68 and 71 don't look bad for SSP, but still...

[twincitizen]

So I split this off into a separate topic, since that seems where we're headed.

1. The problem as far as transit goes is that West St. Paul and South St. Paul are in Dakota County. Hastings is the poorly located county seat, and the true financial/political powerbase lies in Eagan (and Burnsville, AV, Lakeville). If you could go back in time 130 years or so and predict the massive suburbanization of Dakota County, it wouldn't have been a bad idea to move the county seat to Eagan, in which case a traditional downtown would have developed there and future suburban development would have centered on that.
2. The current priority is on Robert Street, which of course runs through Ramsey County too. Robert Street actually scored the lowest on Metro Transit's aBRT study in 2011. However, before that study was completed, Robert Street had already been identified by CTIB as a priority project, so they'll maneuver around Metro Transit to plan and fund something in this corridor, even if it will be operated as part of the aBRT system (E-Line?).
3. The recently completed Alternatives Analysis clearly pointed towards aBRT on Robert Street as the way forward (streetcars on Robert and Highway BRT on 52 were also considered). Keep in mind what I said about it scoring the lowest, compared to other Mpls-StP aBRT corridors. However, what we have now is a case of a politician (I don't know who exactly) who will not let the streetcar dream go. They are effectively holding up implementation of BRT on Robert Street so they can do more studies to find economic justification for building a streetcar instead (which, even to the untrained eye, there is no way this corridor can support rail without complete and total redevelopment of the entire city of West St. Paul...that probably isn't going to happen)

As for a transit corridor closer to the river (i.e. Concord or something through the heart of SSP), I think that's probably pretty far off in the future. SSP would have to demand it or elect a County Commissioner who was really passionate about it. As is, I think the best this part of the Metro will get is the aforementioned aBRT on Robert and highway BRT on 52. Not a bad combo really. Better local bus service would sink up the "heart" of SSP to those transit improvements.

P.S. Where exactly is the "downtown" of South St. Paul? It's a fairly big town of 20,000+, built on a traditional street grid as mattaudio noted. Where the hell is South St. Paul's "Main Street"? Did it not ever have one due to proximity to downtown St. Paul? Was it decimated by a freeway or urban renewal? Surely there has to be a corridor of streetcar buildings somewhere...

P.P.S. West St. Paul and South St. Paul should merge into a single proper burb of ~40,000 (2013 est.) And it should just be called South St. Paul. I understand why West St. Paul is called what it is, but it's stupid and confusing. In a perfect world, they would just merge with actual St. Paul, but that ain't gonna happen.

[mulad]

This reminds me that I've been meaning to write a Wikipedia entry for the St. Paul Southern Electric Railway, which was an interurban extending out to Hastings along the west bank of the river. The Twin City Rapid Transit streetcar system ran along Concord out to South St. Paul, and the St. Paul Southern extended from South St. Paul out to Hastings. It only lasted from 1914 to 1928 -- it took them several months after opening before they were able to interline service along the TCRT tracks into St. Paul, though that turned out to be a less than ideal situation since the TCRT tracks were busy with streetcars that stopped frequently, resulting in a 90-minute trip. They started out with too little power from their electric substations and had bought all-wooden rail cars which were obsolete from the beginning compared to TCRT's cars which at least had metal underframes (though still mostly wood above). Their initial charter had a plan to extend the line through Red Wing and on to Rochester, but they only ever got as far as Hastings.

Anyway, to get to one of twincitizen's questions -- I'm not sure if South St. Paul ever really had much of a downtown, since the big business there was based around the stockyards that are all gone now. I believe the area has mostly been redeveloped as medium-low density office parks (but I don't know much about the city's history other than there used to be a lot of stockyards).

The few remnants of any downtown are generally near Concord and the city's own Grand Ave. Looks like widening/realignment of Concord Ave may have also wiped out quite a bit of stuff.

[MNdible]

Pretty sure that Southview Blvd. is what would be considered downtown South St. Paul. At least that's where they have their Booya cook-off.

[twincitizen]

This article from a couple years ago would be of interest to y'all: http://www.startribune.com/local/south/243545041.html

There isn't much there today, but if you were going to establish a "Main Street" corridor, as the article states, Southview between 12th and 7th (or 5th) would be the place to do it. Also as the article notes, the lack of "traffic" (I'd say population and trip density, but same thing in this context) would be a huge barrier to success. There's already highway access to Southview (on 52) and 7th (on 494) but each are like a mile from the proposed main street area. That's good, because Southview will likely never be a major traffic artery, but also bad, because a little closer proximity to the highway would be beneficial, to a point. Looks like the bluff prevents Southview from connecting directly to Concord, but perhaps some reworking on the east end could help drive more traffic to Southview.

EDIT: It appears there are some streetcar/"Main Street" style buildings on Marie Ave in this area. Southview does as well, but really only at 7th. I'm not sure how you turn that into a cohesive district with a tighter focus. With much higher population density or a busier traffic artery, that wouldn't be as big of a concern, but I think to create a successful local business node that basically only serves residents of SSP, you probably need to tighten it up and pick an intersection or two to focus on (assuming public funds for redevelopment, storefront rehab, improvements to sidewalks, planters, "district" banners, etc.)

Here's a map of Route 68 (runs on Southview, then turns south at 5th Ave): http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... 068Map.pdf

[mattaudio]

I actually thought Marie was more of the traditional main street than Southview, and my guess was always that Southview became a more important corridor to the west so the auto-oriented stuff migrated down there. And there's a surprising amount of density centered around Concord Street and Grand Ave including two high rise residential towers, and a skyway between two buildings on the west side of the intersection

To tie this back to Robert BRT (even though it's a different thread now) I would think one decent extension option for the BRT would be east from Robert at Marie (new bridge over 52 would be required) then through the core of SSP, then south on 5th Ave S. This is generally the southern route of the 68.

[Mikey]

P.S. Where exactly is the "downtown" of South St. Paul? It's a fairly big town of 20,000+, built on a traditional street grid as mattaudio noted. Where the hell is South St. Paul's "Main Street"? Did it not ever have one due to proximity to downtown St. Paul? Was it decimated by a freeway or urban renewal? Surely there has to be a corridor of streetcar buildings somewhere...

"Downtown SSP" was the Concord / Grand area - old Concord (Concord Exchange now) was a streetcar strip lined with commercial buildings: stores, banks, and a LOT of bars (those stockyard workers were thirsty...) In the late 60's, they decided to urban renewal the whole area. They moved the railroad to the edge of the river with the new levee and new 4-lane Concord east to were the RR tracks had been. They then bulldozed almost everything. Unfortunately, the packing plants started to shut down just after the bulldozers came through, and all the commercial stuff just relocated to Robert St instead.

P.P.S. West St. Paul and South St. Paul should merge into a single proper burb of ~40,000 (2013 est.) And it should just be called South St. Paul. I understand why West St. Paul is called what it is, but it's stupid and confusing. In a perfect world, they would just merge with actual St. Paul, but that ain't gonna happen.

Ironically, they used to be united. In the 1880's, SSP incorporated the entire area. Three years later, the rural western half split off in a dispute over the location of the City Hall building. Then, after SSP almost went bankrupt building their "elaborate" new city hall, there was a referendum to annex the city into St Paul and Ramsey County proper that barely failed.

[Mikey]

Side note on the SSP / St Paul connection: My house is on Fourth Ave (one block off the 68) and the original plat for my neighborhood is labeled as St Paul. I live on "Sterling St"

[sdho]

I'm dicking around a bit in ArcGIS (I feel like a GOD) working on something, and I'm noticing for the first time that there are really a lot of good urban bones extending along the Mississippi past St. Paul clear down to down the actual edge where agricultural land starts. Has there ever been any real consideration of east metro transit investment that hits these areas? Sure as hell beats $469 million of BRT out to Lake Elmo.

This observation is in-line with Met Council's community classifications: http://www.metrocouncil.org/METC/files/ ... e65957.pdf. If you take a look at the map, you'll notice the transition is quite different around WSP/SSP. In most of the rest of the metro, it goes urban core to urban to suburban to suburban edge. SSP and WSP, however, border "suburban" and "suburban edge". There is definitely no greater shock to the urbanist system than driving through West Paul and suddenly crossing the border to Inver Grove Heights, where charming blocks with .15 acre lots and excellent street presence rapidly give way to stormwater ponds, vinyl siding, stroads, and culs-de-sac.

P.P.S. West St. Paul and South St. Paul should merge into a single proper burb of ~40,000 (2013 est.) And it should just be called South St. Paul. I understand why West St. Paul is called what it is, but it's stupid and confusing. In a perfect world, they would just merge with actual St. Paul, but that ain't gonna happen.

You're going to have to convince Westside St. Paul (http://wsco.org/) to re-identify, too, if you're going to enforce cardinal directions.

[sdho]

Then, after SSP almost went bankrupt building their "elaborate" new city hall, there was a referendum to annex the city into St Paul and Ramsey County proper that barely failed.

Interesting. Similar background with Richfield, where the city limit was at 54th St for many years. Residents north of 66th wanted to be annexed, some saying the entire (then-)village should be annexed, and a compromise was hit around 1930 that just 8 blocks should be taken, to 62nd. It's stayed there since.

But on that subject, back to twincitizen's point, if we were changing city lines around anyway, why combine SSP and WSP versus just annexing into St. Paul?

[Mikey]

I think there used to be a much bigger hangup over cities crossing the county line. Obviously it doesn't matter anymore (see St Cloud, etc), but it was such a big deal that when St Paul annexed the current West Side, Ramsey Co took it over from Dakota Co.

And on twincitizen's point, I personally would have no problem if they both joined St Paul proper. I live 6 miles from DT St Paul, probably closer than some parts of Highland Park

[twincitizen]

There's lots of instances of cities lying in two (or more counties), from small "fingers" of cities to 1/3 or so of the total land area (St. Anthony Village).

"Fingers" in the metro, just off the top of my head
Chanhassen in Hennepin County
Spring Lake Park in Ramsey County
Blaine in Ramsey County
Hastings in Washington County

Most of those are probably longstanding historical quirks, but I'm guessing it isn't that big of a deal, otherwise you'd think there would be effort to annex the above listed areas into a proper city inside that county (seems more likely to remain in current county, but get annexed into a different city). Like if it mattered that much, Eden Prairie would just annex that little chunk of Chan. Mounds View would just annex those little bites that Spring Lake Park and Blaine have taken out of it.

So, in that regard, if there was the political will, SSP and WSP could just merge with Saint Paul, but remain in Dakota County. I think it would be far less likely today for cities or parts of cities to change counties.

[Silophant]

I also think it's unlikely. The idea of Mankato and North Mankato merging is floated every few years (North Mankato always shoots it down, because they're proudly independent despite sharing a school district and almost all city services), but North Mankato leaving Nicollet County is never mentioned.

[twincitizen]

Strib checks in on the Southview-Marie area, one year after the article I posted above: http://www.startribune.com/local/south/294524511.html

[sdho]

Everything about this conclusion is deeply disturbing:

City officials know there’s a problem. Why would people stay in South St. Paul, when they can grab lunch and run errands in Woodbury?

But they have a shining beacon of change: Kwik Trip. The company plans to build a station on Concord Street this summer.

[twincitizen]

Yeah, that's pretty backwards logic. They grab lunch and run errands in Woodbury because those options are not presently available in SSP, not because they have some inherent preference for driving to Woodbury over staying in their community.

I'll leave the Kwik Trip thing alone. A gas station out on Concord Stroad has zero relation to the Southview-Marie area.

There was another weird comment in there lamenting the fact that they moved the rail lines to the riverfront a generation or two ago, and that was going to prevent some future Stillwater-esque riverfront revival. News flash to South St. Paul: there are no people or retail businesses anywhere near your riverfront. Even if the demolished "downtown" area near Concord & Grand (as noted above) were still standing today, it would still be a jaunt away from the river. The riverfront has jack squat to do with the revitalization of the core residential/commercial area of South St. Paul (aside from possibly providing additional light industrial jobs to make said housing area desirable)