Bloomington - General Topics

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sdho
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby sdho » May 3rd, 2016, 10:56 am

Here's one idea I thought of.
This idea looks reasonable, and preserves yard space -- especially if each house has a 1-car or duplex garage, so no double-wide doors. However, it seems like cities (and homeowners) don't love shared driveways. With alleys, there's at least public coordination for the maintenance and snow removal (even if homeowners may pay for it).

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby FISHMANPET » May 3rd, 2016, 11:03 am

Maybe I dislike alleys more than most people, but I think there's some sort of selection, with the people that like alleys buying houses in the cities, those that don't farther out, and those that don't care in both places. So Bloomington would be on a range of don't care to don't like. Besides logistical reasons that was one of my reasons for excluding them in my parameters.
I think the factors that go into buying a house are too complicated to be able to look at a place with no alleys for example, and say definitively that nobody there wants alleys and they chose that location specifically because it had no alleys.

The decision matrix of choosing something as complicated and expensive as a house has countless factors playing into it, such that it's really hard to say that choosing a particular house with a particular set of properties is a result of every property of that house.

I mean, I'd honestly be surprised if a large portion of people had negative views of alleys, I think you have some that like them and the vast majority of people just won't care.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 3rd, 2016, 11:28 am

In 100% agreement about how complicated a home-buying (or even renting) decision is to make sweeping generalizations about one aspect of them. But. I'd say that maybe people don't generally dislike alleys themselves, but their implications. I like the side effect that alleys make streetscapes better. But alleys also force you to make the tradeoff of having an attached garage (long back driveway) vs yard space in the back yard where it tends to be more private (detached garage against the alley). The former precludes a fully-enclosed back yard via a fence, something many people like. So, to people who don't care about streetscapes (or don't care as much as they claim to when they talk about "curb appeal" etc when buying vinyl houses with giant garage doors and asphalt driveways facing the street), an alley itself may not be bad but the tradeoff not worth it. Especially if, as Monte has said, you plan on driving for literally 100% of your trips anyway and having a front garage makes that habit as easy as humanly possible.

In any case, Monte, your idea looks reasonable to me. But so do tons of other options for living. I don't think that a standard Bloomington lot should be limited to a certain type of detached housing style just because it makes it possible to have 2 stall garages or enough room for kids to play in a backyard or whatever. Someone is going to complain that your design ruins their lives if it went in next door anyway, so why not just allow much more so people can be creative in meeting peoples' needs for housing.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Mdcastle » May 4th, 2016, 7:06 am

That's a better way of putting it; it's the implications of alleys that some people don't like, such as harder egress in a car, valuable back yard space taken up by a garage, and such. Meanwhile seeing driveways and garages in front isn't seen as an issue for some, just normal. (And I hate vinyl siding with a passion, after 50 years it's time to replace the cedar siding on my house so although we're wrapping the soffits the siding itself will be new cedar).

I know not everyone wants the same things, but my parameters were pretty standard for what is available on a standard lot, so it was just a thought experiment if most of that could be accommodate on a split lot. If the self-driving rental car model comes to pass that would change the landscape dramatically.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Mdcastle » May 12th, 2016, 6:45 pm

Notes from the Old Cedar Ave trail meeting:
I was only the 2nd person to sign in, So I was able to talk to the city engineer as long as I wanted to:

*The Bloomington Trail WILL BE FULLY PROTECTED and 8-10 feet wide all the way to the bridge. None of that "nothing between me and cars but paint" type nonsense. There are wetlands on the east side and steep slopes on the west side. Cutting into the slopes is opening all kinds of trouble so the trail crosses the east near the curve. Originally they were looking at a boardwalk, but further engineering is determining something more like a bridge will be needed.

*Cedar Ave will have the 4-Lane Death Road south of Old Shakopee reduced to three lanes. North of Old Shakopee any lane reduction is simply not going to happen. I guess there's a fantastic amount of through traffic going between MN 77 at Old Shakopee and 90th. The city engineer blamed Mn/DOT for not fixing congestion on the freeways causing through traffic to divert to the local streets.

*The Portland restriping isn't going to happen until the street is completely reconstructed. Richfield got plans started a decade ago, so Bloomington wants to catch up and get their own plans going.

*Both the city and the county want a five lane section with turn lanes on Old Shakopee Road at Cedar. This I agree with even though Old Shakopee could be 3 lanes west of there. Traffic tends to back up and block the right lane whenever something happens on MN 77

*Flashing Yellow Arrows are coming soon to some of the signals on Lyndale, but not the county owned signal at 98th.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby sdho » May 12th, 2016, 9:33 pm

Nice that we will see a full connection of the Intercity Trail to the river. I'd love to see a completed connection on the south side to get you to at least Burnsville Heart of the City.

Lack of restriping Portland is disgraceful -- traffic counts are significantly lower (5000-8000) than Richfield's segment of Portland, that has been functioning great as three lanes since 2010. The Diamond Lake, Minneapolis section has more traffic than Bloomington's as well, and functions pretty well at 2 lanes + bike lanes and parking. This is not remotely questionable territory.

What's worse, Bloomington's Portland is not that old, and could be a decade or two till it sees reconstruction. Did they indicate if there was some study or document about how they reached this decision on Portland?

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby mister.shoes » May 13th, 2016, 9:12 am

North of Old Shakopee any lane reduction is simply not going to happen. I guess there's a fantastic amount of through traffic going between MN 77 at Old Shakopee and 90th. The city engineer blamed Mn/DOT for not fixing congestion on the freeways causing through traffic to divert to the local streets.
So rather than striping a city street to best serve the city, they're going to go ahead and continue to accommodate cut-through traffic that shouldn't be there in the first place. Clearly, MN77 isn't performing so traffic is looking for less friction. Create friction here and those drivers might stay on the freeway where they belong.
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby sdho » May 16th, 2016, 3:10 pm

North of Old Shakopee any lane reduction is simply not going to happen. I guess there's a fantastic amount of through traffic going between MN 77 at Old Shakopee and 90th. The city engineer blamed Mn/DOT for not fixing congestion on the freeways causing through traffic to divert to the local streets.
So rather than striping a city street to best serve the city, they're going to go ahead and continue to accommodate cut-through traffic that shouldn't be there in the first place. Clearly, MN77 isn't performing so traffic is looking for less friction. Create friction here and those drivers might stay on the freeway where they belong.
I don't think it's to bypass congestion on Cedar Avenue -- it's because the only connection Bloomington really has to Cedar is via Old Shakopee (except for the MOA junction). So the "correct" behavior to get to 90th would be Cedar Ave, exit to OSR, west on OSR to Old Cedar, west on 90th. That stays on MSA/collector and CSAH/arterial routes.

I still think people could probably grin and bear a bit of congestion for less than half a mile on Old Cedar, though...

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby mattaudio » May 17th, 2016, 9:37 am

Since the Old Cedar Ave alignment doesn't really serve much automobility value assuming most people are getting to either Cedar Freeway or Old Shakopee Road... Could 90th St be extended east to the freeway ramps, where there would then be dogbone-style double roundabout with the ramps and with Old Shakopee? This would get rid of the awkward backtracking that happens down to the skewed Old Cedar / Old Shakopee intersection.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby twincitizen » May 26th, 2016, 9:23 am

I encourage other folks to take a drive around some of the older commercial areas of Bloomington if you have a chance. I'd love to hear what you think. American Boulevard between Cedar and Nicollet, particularly Nicollet & American. Pretty much all of Lyndale between 86th and 98th, etc.

There's a decent amount of near-blight, and a whole lot of deteriorating/dated/ugly-to-begin-with. The good news is that at least much of it is actually occupied/functional blight, so at least it's not (yet) vast swaths of vacancy. HH incomes in the surrounding neighborhoods have been falling in recent years and will likely continue to fall or stagnate. I don't have high hopes for redevelopment or even remodeling for a lot of these strip malls and standalone fast food restaurants, at least not in the immediate future. Mostly just due to the sheer volume of it.

Curious to hear what others think. I think there is just way to much commercial space in total. None of these areas are really regional magnets, other than arguably the area just east of Cedar (Water Park of America & some offices/hotels) or the Lyndale & 494 area. Lyndale & 98th is probably a sub-regional draw, mostly limited to Bloomington residents, daytime workers, and probably a fair amount of traffic coming up from Burnsville, etc.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby mattaudio » May 26th, 2016, 11:04 am

Bloomington should give up on American Boulevard in terms of "placemaking." It's a car sewer, that's it's design and that's its destiny. If Bloomington wants a chance of having neighborhoods renaissance over the coming decades, it needs to look to the residential interior. There are no "neighborhood corners" in Bloomington - no places with a sense of place - and it makes the neighborhoods less appealing and less valuable. Imagine corners like 86th/Nicollet or 90th/Portland with little neighborhood retail - dry cleaner, coffee, a corner pub or restaurant, etc. It sure would make Bloomington a more appealing place. And west Bloomington already has this: 90th/Penn, OSR/France, 98th/Normandale, etc. Unfortunately those are auto-centric strip-mall place-dungeons, but they have hope.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby twincitizen » May 26th, 2016, 2:22 pm

I sense that there is building (or at least budding) criticism of city leadership (and/or staff) that there is far too much focus on MOA, South Loop, and Penn American - leaving the majority of smaller/medium commercial nodes to decay. And that is exactly the sense I get driving around the city. Part of the problem is that there is entirely too much commercial space strung out over long corridors (Lyndale being the worse example), rather than focused at major & minor nodes every half-mile or so. However, a city can only do so much with planning to guide private sector led outcomes. With falling HH incomes and such, private investment in revitalizing or redeveloping these strips is often going to need the helping hand of the city (see Penn American). And Bloomington is really massive: it's 2.5x the population of Richfield, but spread out over 5x the land area. And much of it is laid out in a fashion unlike other 2nd ring suburbs.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby David Greene » May 26th, 2016, 3:06 pm

I encourage other folks to take a drive around some of the older commercial areas of Bloomington if you have a chance. I'd love to hear what you think. American Boulevard between Cedar and Nicollet, particularly Nicollet & American.
Nicollet and American is indeed awful but it does have the best music store in the metro.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby QuietBlue » May 26th, 2016, 3:16 pm

And across the freeway is arguably the best taqueria in the metro too.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby sdho » May 26th, 2016, 3:24 pm

And across the freeway is arguably the best taqueria in the metro too.
That place has been a 10-minute walk from my house. I keep intending to go, but it's been four years and still have never gone. :shock: Went to the grocery store a few times, though...

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby HiawathaGuy » May 26th, 2016, 3:36 pm

And across the freeway is arguably the best taqueria in the metro too.
That place has been a 10-minute walk from my house. I keep intending to go, but it's been four years and still have never gone. :shock: Went to the grocery store a few times, though...
Off-subject, as it's Richfield... but it's amazing. It was recently featured on Diners, Drive-Ins & Dives too. Highly recommend getting there!

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Mdcastle » May 26th, 2016, 5:20 pm

The commercial definately got overbuilt in the 1980s-1990s around Oxboro, the anchor tenant in the one northeast of 98th and Old Shakopee is a beauty school that got displaced by the new city hall. But I don't really see a problem with Lyndale Ave. Fast food drive-thrus have to be somewhere, and inexpensive retail serves a purpose. That new Italian place in the old Taco Bell / Pawn Shop / Smoke Shop or that card shop in Clover would never be able to afford the rent somewhere new and fancy. I really, really wish someone would open a drive-thru coffee shop though.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby QuietBlue » May 26th, 2016, 8:55 pm

But I don't really see a problem with Lyndale Ave. Fast food drive-thrus have to be somewhere, and inexpensive retail serves a purpose. That new Italian place in the old Taco Bell / Pawn Shop / Smoke Shop or that card shop in Clover would never be able to afford the rent somewhere new and fancy.
I was going to tie my Andale tangent back to this idea, because yeah, it's a good example of this too. Cheaper areas allow some types of businesses to thrive that wouldn't elsewhere. That doesn't mean blight is wonderful or anything, but there are definitely consequences to making everything shiny and new too when existing uses get pushed out. Plus I don't know how much of Bloomington is truly blighted anyway; it seems like most industrial buildings and commercial spaces are in use.

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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Mdcastle » May 26th, 2016, 9:25 pm

My observation is that when something gets truly decrepit on Lyndale the land is desirable enough someone buys it out and fixes it up or redevelops it. Besides the new Italian restaurant some Examples- the credit union replacing two gasoline stations, Tony's appliances and the popcorn shop replacing an old auto repair, new apartments replacing the lumber yard. The exception was the large lot that was a bowling alley and VFA that were torn down on speculation by a developer and except for the Dairy Queen is still mostly vacant.

The industrial area along American isn't any better or worse than other such areas like 96th and James, just more visible because a major street was cut through the area.

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Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Anondson » June 6th, 2016, 2:19 pm

A solution to space hogging auto dealers? Walser wants to build a five-story dealership.

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/n ... ngton.html

They gotta go somewhere in this day. Wish Luther Hopkins Honda would do this instead of squatting on land by 169.


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