I feel like the river is as much a mental/psychological barrier for people as it is a physical one. I live on the west side of Eagan, and I often have to remind myself that I live closer to Bloomington than I do most of the south metro.When they wanted to get out of the city for good, my parents looked around in Burnsville but ultimately bought a house in Bloomington because they didn't want the hassle of crossing the river... in 1968.
Bloomington - General Topics
Re: Bloomington - General Topics
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
From the 35W Transportation page: https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f ... &start=140I assume the plan is to start a northbound aux lane at Cliff Road (or even 13) and continue it right into the truck lane on the north end of the bridge? Or extend it even further to 98th Street exit-only?
Since the forum software does weird stuff with what MnDOT put in that URL, here's a better link.
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
Funny, I actually know more people who WANT to be south of the river... You're correct about the river being more than just a physical barrier. A lot of people that I know see it as a suburban paradise over there.I feel like the river is as much a mental/psychological barrier for people as it is a physical one. I live on the west side of Eagan, and I often have to remind myself that I live closer to Bloomington than I do most of the south metro.When they wanted to get out of the city for good, my parents looked around in Burnsville but ultimately bought a house in Bloomington because they didn't want the hassle of crossing the river... in 1968.
Re: Bloomington - General Topics
I asked the engineer about a few things. The northbound aux lane will start at Cliff Road. I could see this changing in a few decades when the interchange is rebuilt or the area is redeveloped, but for now traffic modeling shows that traffic flows better with the lane starting at Cliff Road. All the trucks entering going about 15 mph from the Cliff Road ramp is a bigger issue than the large volume of vehicles from MN 13. Right now extending the truck lane (which is rarely used as such) to 98th St is something under consideration but not a formal part of the project at the moment.
At the time my father worked for Honeywell and my mother worked at Multifoods. Neither one of them wanted to fight the traffic across the river twice a day, which was horrible even back then. The were showed a lot of places in Burnsville but finally found one in Bloomington that they liked, and that was far enough away from the city for them. But I can see how it would be psychological barrier rather than just a physical one, I guess that works both ways depending on if you like being near the city or not.
At the time my father worked for Honeywell and my mother worked at Multifoods. Neither one of them wanted to fight the traffic across the river twice a day, which was horrible even back then. The were showed a lot of places in Burnsville but finally found one in Bloomington that they liked, and that was far enough away from the city for them. But I can see how it would be psychological barrier rather than just a physical one, I guess that works both ways depending on if you like being near the city or not.
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
I walked around the OATI development site at Computer Ave and 494 today.
Building is chugging along, but I was surprised at the extreme security measures around the site. Computer Ave and W 78th St have an 8' pointed iron fence. And the north side, adjoining Seagate, has a 10' chainlink fence complete with barbed wire. I'm honestly surprised the city even allows fences that high, particularly adjoining streets.
Building is chugging along, but I was surprised at the extreme security measures around the site. Computer Ave and W 78th St have an 8' pointed iron fence. And the north side, adjoining Seagate, has a 10' chainlink fence complete with barbed wire. I'm honestly surprised the city even allows fences that high, particularly adjoining streets.
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
Makes me wonder what they're protecting.
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
Looks like it should be 6' when adjacent to a street, 10' otherwise: https://www.bloomingtonmn.gov/sites/def ... ndards.pdf
They could have been granted a variance of course. Interesting that they allow barbed wire on non-industrial property...unless it's not supposed to be there.
They could have been granted a variance of course. Interesting that they allow barbed wire on non-industrial property...unless it's not supposed to be there.
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
Right? And, what could they possibly be protecting that the building doesn't protect? Keeping Seagate employees out of the parking lot?Makes me wonder what they're protecting.
Actually the sheet you linked to says, "Barbed wire is permitted only on top of fences in nonresidential districts, a minimum of six feet above the natural grade." It is indeed at least 6' off the ground, in a non-residential district.Looks like it should be 6' when adjacent to a street, 10' otherwise: https://www.bloomingtonmn.gov/sites/def ... ndards.pdf
They could have been granted a variance of course. Interesting that they allow barbed wire on non-industrial property...unless it's not supposed to be there.
In general their fence code seems pretty loose. I can't believe you're allowed to build a 6' fence in the front yard of a residential property if it faces an arterial. Also interesting it doesn't seem to distinguish between front vs side yard (only adjacent to the street or not).
Re: Bloomington - General Topics
...I bet they have a low employee turnover rate, compared to the industry average.
Re: Bloomington - General Topics
"The barbed wire is to keep people in, not out."...I bet they have a low employee turnover rate, compared to the industry average.
Re: Bloomington - General Topics
"The barbed wire is to keep people in, not out."...I bet they have a low employee turnover rate, compared to the industry average.
..............yes..........hence the low turnover rate...
Re: Bloomington - General Topics
Assuming we're throwing existing zoning and codes out the window: Are there house designs that could fit it a standard Bloomington lot if it were divided into two? Say at least 1000 square feet and a 2 car garage and enough back yard for a small deck or play area. I'm assuming this would need to be 2-1/2 stories and probably a setback of only a couple of feet from the lot line.
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
If it's a 100+ foot lot width, yes you can definitely split that into two lots (if zoning allowed, which it currently does not). If it's an 85-foot lot (very common in Bloomington), then no, it probably cannot be split, unless you want a bunch of closely spaced snout-garage houses.
Being realistic, a 50 foot lot width is about as low as you can go with front driveways (no alleys) and two-car garages. Richfield has several large, newer houses built on 50-foot lots. They all have 2-car garages and at least 2,000 finished sf.
Technically speaking, of course Bloomington could allow 42.5' wide lots, but without alleys the street would pretty much just be driveways. There are parts of Linden Hills without alleys on 42' lots but I don't expect that would fly in Bloomington. And it definitely wouldn't meet your requirement of having a yard. 50' is really the minimum workable width for a suburban area. After allowing for 5' setbacks on each side, you still have 40' of buildable width for house+attached garage or house+driveway (to detached garage in rear).
Long story short, Bloomington should reduce its minimum lot width requirement to 50', and lot size to ~6500 sf.
Being realistic, a 50 foot lot width is about as low as you can go with front driveways (no alleys) and two-car garages. Richfield has several large, newer houses built on 50-foot lots. They all have 2-car garages and at least 2,000 finished sf.
Technically speaking, of course Bloomington could allow 42.5' wide lots, but without alleys the street would pretty much just be driveways. There are parts of Linden Hills without alleys on 42' lots but I don't expect that would fly in Bloomington. And it definitely wouldn't meet your requirement of having a yard. 50' is really the minimum workable width for a suburban area. After allowing for 5' setbacks on each side, you still have 40' of buildable width for house+attached garage or house+driveway (to detached garage in rear).
Long story short, Bloomington should reduce its minimum lot width requirement to 50', and lot size to ~6500 sf.
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
I've actually wondered that myself, about suburbs like Bloomington, Richfield, and other inner-ring suburbs with wide, ranch-style plots. I even wonder about that for some parcels in the core cities that are currently 40-50 feet wide, in the event that the city becomes such a hot commodity that land values would justify 2:1 splits in some places. I think it could easily be done with 60+ foot-wide lots, with undersized homes respective to the value of the property, IFF they could add an alley behind the homes on the block.
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
Any chance for ever retrofitting alleys? I love my alley (well, I love the streetscape it affords - a wonderful block without driveways).
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
You already know the answer to that. In no way, shape, or form, is the city buying up ~12' of ROW through people's backyards, in many cases where they have already built detached garages, sheds, gardens, etc. Not gonna happen.
That said, one of my biggest "dislikes" about Richfield, aesthetically speaking, is that the major arterial streets were not built with more alleys. Little sections of Portland, Nicollet, and Lyndale have a block with alleys here or there, but those blocks are in the minority. With alleys, you wouldn't have so many goddamn driveways & curb cuts fronting on busy streets. The lack of alleys on busy streets may actually be my least favorite infrastructural aspect of Richfield. Other things like lot widths, lack of sidewalks, etc. can all be changed over time. But adding alleys won't happen without the city buying up whole blocks of property and replatting them...so it won't happen. It would be a terrible use of public funds, even if it were feasible.
That said, one of my biggest "dislikes" about Richfield, aesthetically speaking, is that the major arterial streets were not built with more alleys. Little sections of Portland, Nicollet, and Lyndale have a block with alleys here or there, but those blocks are in the minority. With alleys, you wouldn't have so many goddamn driveways & curb cuts fronting on busy streets. The lack of alleys on busy streets may actually be my least favorite infrastructural aspect of Richfield. Other things like lot widths, lack of sidewalks, etc. can all be changed over time. But adding alleys won't happen without the city buying up whole blocks of property and replatting them...so it won't happen. It would be a terrible use of public funds, even if it were feasible.
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
Just kind of a total spitball, but could the city buy an easement on the back 12' of every property of a block, say that the current owner has use of any structures in that space for as long as they exist, and at some time (in 100 years?) when everything's been cleared out the city could put an alley in.
I mean, I can think of a ton of reasons why that would never happen, but would it at least be possible?
I mean, I can think of a ton of reasons why that would never happen, but would it at least be possible?
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
I guess, if that's what you think is the minimum possible detached house someone would live in, then yeah, twincitizen's response is accurate. I don't think it's outrageous to dream a little bigger, though. One car garage, tradeoff deck or yard space, potentially smaller homes, etc (though, a 1,000 square foot home wouldn't need 2+ stories if you include the basement). I always preface with the fact that Nathan Lewis is a blow-hard, but here are a bunch of pictures of single family detached homes in Japan with parking (some garage, some open air - which many Minneapolis residents prove they're comfortable with) and private outdoor space. I'm not saying every example meets the typical American aesthetic (their streets look much more like a nicer-version of Minneapolis alleys), but it shows what you can do with a 1-2,000 sqft lot.Assuming we're throwing existing zoning and codes out the window: Are there house designs that could fit it a standard Bloomington lot if it were divided into two? Say at least 1000 square feet and a 2 car garage and enough back yard for a small deck or play area. I'm assuming this would need to be 2-1/2 stories and probably a setback of only a couple of feet from the lot line.
Obviously, your question is more one of specifically retrofitting Bloomington lots, without adding alleys or other public rights of way on any private property. These layouts still could be done on a standard Bloomington SFH lot (about 125' deep and anywhere from 75 to 125' wide) with a shared driveway and 4 small homes sharing that access. You'd have a minimum of 32'x62' for each plot on which to build a home and garage, with at least 5' setbacks on all sides. If a redeveloper wanted to do this on a smaller Bloomington lot (75' wide), they wouldn't get any yard space, only a deck above the garage. That's fine, humans are capable of making that tradeoff. On the wider lots, you'd end up with a "backyard" (it'd be against the side-yard of the neighbor) of about 35'x60', more than big enough for a patio/deck and small play area (my back yard is 40x25 plus a 12x12 deck). If you want to make new, detached single family homes more affordable, allowing this configuration in Bloomington would be a great place to start.
Re: Bloomington - General Topics
Here's one idea I thought of
IMG_9154 by North Star Highways, on Flickr
A shared wall on a garage wouldn't be as objectionable as one on a living space, the driveway would be a shared easement or else one person would own both lots with the second one being rented out. That is still a lot of garage in front, but it's kind of unavoidable assuming a double garage and you don't want the garage taking up valuable backyard space.
The interior layout would be laundry and utility on the same floor as the garage, the kids bedrooms in front and great room facing the back yard with an upper level deck in back on the first floor, and master suite on the top 1/2 story.
Maybe I dislike alleys more than most people, but I think there's some sort of selection, with the people that like alleys buying houses in the cities, those that don't farther out, and those that don't care in both places. So Bloomington would be on a range of don't care to don't like. Besides logistical reasons that was one of my reasons for excluding them in my parameters.
IMG_9154 by North Star Highways, on Flickr
A shared wall on a garage wouldn't be as objectionable as one on a living space, the driveway would be a shared easement or else one person would own both lots with the second one being rented out. That is still a lot of garage in front, but it's kind of unavoidable assuming a double garage and you don't want the garage taking up valuable backyard space.
The interior layout would be laundry and utility on the same floor as the garage, the kids bedrooms in front and great room facing the back yard with an upper level deck in back on the first floor, and master suite on the top 1/2 story.
Maybe I dislike alleys more than most people, but I think there's some sort of selection, with the people that like alleys buying houses in the cities, those that don't farther out, and those that don't care in both places. So Bloomington would be on a range of don't care to don't like. Besides logistical reasons that was one of my reasons for excluding them in my parameters.
Last edited by Mdcastle on May 3rd, 2016, 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics
A complicating factor for Richfield is that much of Nicollet and Lyndale have alleys, but they're extremely underutilized. In fact I believe every block of Nicollet 66th-76th has an alley on at least one side. However, many of the houses are older and preceded the installation of the alleys, or some homeowners took it upon themselves to add parking pads in their front yard, in lieu of on-street parking. It seems that in the name of access management, it would be worthwhile to provide money to homeowners to connect/reconfigure to existing alleys in exchange for removing driveway access. Portland has a couple of blocks that are platted for alleys that never got built, or only got built part-way.That said, one of my biggest "dislikes" about Richfield, aesthetically speaking, is that the major arterial streets were not built with more alleys. Little sections of Portland, Nicollet, and Lyndale have a block with alleys here or there, but those blocks are in the minority. With alleys, you wouldn't have so many goddamn driveways & curb cuts fronting on busy streets. The lack of alleys on busy streets may actually be my least favorite infrastructural aspect of Richfield. Other things like lot widths, lack of sidewalks, etc. can all be changed over time. But adding alleys won't happen without the city buying up whole blocks of property and replatting them...so it won't happen. It would be a terrible use of public funds, even if it were feasible.
And I actually do think in a few narrow cases, new alleys might work in Bloomington -- like during major street construction. Bloomington's approach to access management thus far has been even more extreme, tearing down over a dozen homes along Lyndale Ave.
But I can't see it ever being worth it on a minor street. Only exception might be splitting a 100' or 150' corner lot. Then, by all means, create a private drive to serve the three. With 40-50' lots and no alley service, it seems to be a choice: ruin your front yard by doing a snout house and wide front driveway, or significantly decrease your backyard by having a long narrow driveway with space to maneuver in back.
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