Mall of America - Bloomington

Twin Cities Suburbs
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mister.shoes
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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby mister.shoes » January 13th, 2015, 11:57 am

When my parents still lived in ND, my dad would stop at SMS every single visit to the Cities. For a while he was trading in a lot of his old stuff and buying new. It's fun to go there on occasion and see trains cars and locos that I remember playing with years ago. That's an amazing store.
The problem with being an introvert online is that no one knows you're just hanging out and listening.

Viktor Vaughn
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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby Viktor Vaughn » January 14th, 2015, 4:05 pm

Bloomington filed charges against 10 of the MoA protest leaders. MPR posted the statement of probable cause from the criminal complaint.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/252646733/Sta ... -complaint

Written from the perspective of trying to make this demonstration sound SO BAD; they really made it sound to me like a well-organized success. It's seriously sad that the MoA can legally prohibit free speech, but it's not like the status quo has ever been challenged without breaking petty laws designed to keep people from making waves.

I'm guessing those charged are sleeping easy knowing history is on their side.

mamundsen
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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby mamundsen » January 14th, 2015, 5:42 pm

This isn't "free speech" it's private property.

Move on.

David Greene
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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby David Greene » January 14th, 2015, 9:28 pm

So there are two different things here. I disagree with the city pressing charges, but I could understand action for trespassing, etc. When you do civil disobedience you accept the consequences, even if the law is wrong.

The bit about charging for police costs and maybe lost revenue is total bullshit. Police handle things like this all the time. That's their *job!*

mamundsen, though the courts have ruled otherwise I think there is a real discussion to be had about what constitutes a public place. For one, we've given the Mall hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of public money. Its whole purpose is to bring people to a shopping distrinct, not unlike retail nodes in the city. The hallways of the Mall work exactly like public streets.

In one bill the legislature could undo all of the previous court decisions and declare that quasi-public spaces in malls are indeed public for the purposes of free speech rights.

Then there are the multitude of even more important issues the Black Lives Matter movement is bringing to the public conversation.

So no, it's not time to move on. Not even close.

uptowncarag

Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby uptowncarag » January 14th, 2015, 9:46 pm

mamundsen wrote:This isn't "free speech" it's private property.

Move on.

Agreed, it is time to move on. This group, I think it is a group, it was very unorganized, has not been heard from since and I have not given it another thought until I saw this posting.

Viktor Vaughn
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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby Viktor Vaughn » January 14th, 2015, 9:51 pm

"As I went walking I saw a sign there
And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
But on the other side it didn't say nothing,
That side was made for you and me.

In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people,
By the relief office I seen my people;
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking
Is this land made for you and me?

Nobody living can ever stop me,
As I go walking that freedom highway;
Nobody living can ever make me turn back
This land was made for you and me."

-Woody Guthrie

David Greene
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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby David Greene » January 14th, 2015, 9:59 pm

My wife and I were just talking about that song this afternoon.

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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby David Greene » January 14th, 2015, 10:01 pm

uptowncarag wrote:This group, I think it is a group, it was very unorganized, has not been heard from since and I have not given it another thought until I saw this posting.
If you think BLM is unorganized you don't know what organizing is. There are some very smart and savvy people involved.

They're planning an MLK march at University and Snelling.

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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby mamundsen » January 14th, 2015, 10:48 pm

The First Amendment does not protect you from:

Criticism: If you're a comedian who makes a bad rape joke, people are allowed to point out that you're not funny as well as an asshole.

Shame: If you tweet something racist about President Obama on your public Twitter account that's connected to your first and last name, people are allowed to say that is bad.

The Right to Anonymity: If you take creepy photos of women without their consent and post them on Reddit, people are allowed to try and figure out who you are and post your information on the internet. No one is entitled to anonymity. It's up to you whether to make it easy for people to find you.

Mockery: Hi, PIKE brothers. Did you deserve to be mocked for your cheesy PG-13 photos? It doesn't matter. You put yourselves out there, which means your peers (and news outlets) have the right to LOL and comment.

Consequences: If you publicly express yourself in a manner that is offensive, hurtful, or just plain dumb, strangers might contact your friends/family/school/employer and tell them what you did. That is not infringing on your right to free speech; it's pointing out how you choose to exercise that right. Like the rest of the federal constitution, the First Amendment protects us from the government, not from private companies, which may be able to fire or otherwise punish you for stuff you say, even if it's outside of work. The laws protecting the free speech of private employees vary from state to state, aside from specifically protected speech like labor organizing. Here are some guidelines for public employees and students.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby FISHMANPET » January 14th, 2015, 11:08 pm

I'm so glad we can just say "aw shucks thats the law" without giving any critical thought to the application of said law.

A++ democracy here guys.

Nobody is saying that the Mall of America protest wasn't technically illegal, the debate is about whether it's just.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby FISHMANPET » January 14th, 2015, 11:13 pm

I realize this clashes with a slavish devotion to the law, but I'm just going to quote myself in the hopes that maybe you'll spend a second to think critically about the issue rather than just parroting talking points.
FISHMANPET wrote:Technically speaking, the Mall is privately owned space, so the Mall would have been within their legal right to declare all the protesters as trespassing and have them ejected/arrested or something. However from the point of view of trying to have a functional democracy in our modern built environment, there's some interesting points to be made. For one, the Mall has received plenty of public money so morally I'm not sure you could call it a 100% private place. But the larger point is that a shopping mall is a major public space in our society today, and the privatization of public space as it pertains to trying to limit speech is certainly a concern for the future of democracy.

I also don't think that everything legal is just or that everything unjust is illegal. Laws are written by man with all the flaws that entail.

go4guy
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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby go4guy » January 15th, 2015, 7:48 am

I dont like the argument that because the mall received public money, that is should be considered public space. It was given public money, because it's investment creates lots of jobs and tax revenue, not to be a public space. The airport has received public money. Does that mean I can bypass TSA and bring a gun into the airport? I have permit to legally carry one, who are they do say I cant? Target's headquarters received public money to be built. Does that mean anyone can walk around in their offices?

Just because something is given public money, does not make it public space. The mall still has rules. Nobody has a right to break those rules on purpose and not expect to get in trouble for it. It isn't like they didn't know. They were warned, and continued anyways.

Do I think BLM is trying to solve serious problems? Absolutely. But they are doing it all wrong. Have public forums with the police. Have small group sessions with the police. Work with the city council. Take out ads in the paper. Do a ton of other more constructive things to raise awareness. The mall protest came off as them just trying to inconvenience as many people as possible on private property. If they were really concerned about getting their message across to the largest number of people, they would have marched down Nicollet Mall during a work day. Completely legal, maximum eyes on your cause, biggest tv station on the route, doesn't disrupt private property and private business.

ECtransplant
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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby ECtransplant » January 15th, 2015, 8:02 am

Nicollet Mall is so vacant even the protests are fleeing for the burbs I guess.

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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby Snelbian » January 15th, 2015, 8:30 am

go4guy wrote:Do I think BLM is trying to solve serious problems? Absolutely. But they are doing it all wrong. Have public forums with the police. Have small group sessions with the police. Work with the city council. Take out ads in the paper. Do a ton of other more constructive things to raise awareness. The mall protest came off as them just trying to inconvenience as many people as possible on private property. If they were really concerned about getting their message across to the largest number of people, they would have marched down Nicollet Mall during a work day. Completely legal, maximum eyes on your cause, biggest tv station on the route, doesn't disrupt private property and private business.
Yes, if the 60's taught us anything it's that the best way to improve civil rights is to request conversations with police officers and try not to inconvenience anyone. It's guaranteed to work, especially since the police have no track record of BEING THE FUCKING PROBLEM or going to extreme lengths (smearing mayors, staging work slowdowns, letting "rats" get shot in the face) to avoid any sort of public accountability whatsoever. Remember kids, property rights and fast commutes are WAY more important than actual lives. Especially the black ones.
uptowncarag wrote:Agreed, it is time to move on. This group, I think it is a group, it was very unorganized, has not been heard from since and I have not given it another thought until I saw this posting.
So because you've somehow managed not to come in contact with a news source in the last month we should assume that the problem of racialized police brutality and murder is gone and no longer a concern. I mean, obviously.

Excuse me while I go bash my head against the wall in disgust and frustration. I'd just wait for a cop to walk by, but I'm white.

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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby Viktor Vaughn » January 15th, 2015, 8:51 am

go4guy wrote: Just because something is given public money, does not make it public space. The mall still has rules. Nobody has a right to break those rules on purpose and not expect to get in trouble for it. It isn't like they didn't know. They were warned, and continued anyways.
I absolutely agree that accepting public money doesn't automatically turn private space public. However, when our public squares are becoming few and far between and formerly public shopping districts are being replaced by private shopping malls, we need to reassess whether the MoA really has a role as a town square that serves a public function.

Public financing of a mall just bolsters that argument that the mall is the modern town square where people go to interact with the public and engage in commerce and are therefore obligated to accomodate constitutionally protected free speech. In other words-
FISHMANPET wrote: For one, the Mall has received plenty of public money so morally I'm not sure you could call it a 100% private place. But the larger point is that a shopping mall is a major public space in our society today, and the privatization of public space as it pertains to trying to limit speech is certainly a concern for the future of democracy.

Viktor Vaughn
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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby Viktor Vaughn » January 15th, 2015, 9:00 am

Also, I'm reminded that the hostsite of Occupy Wall Street, Zuccotti Park, was privately owned space. However, the developer obtained variances for their development by offering a plaza for the public on their property. I'm aware no such stipulation made for the MoA rotunda, but that doesn't address the question of whether it ought to have been made or should be changed now for the sake of our democracy.

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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby Snelbian » January 15th, 2015, 9:09 am

There are problems on both sides here. The mall wasn't just given free money. They were basically given a loan to be paid back in the form of a dedicated tax stream. On the other hand, that basically means that this "huge tax payer" got to effectively not pay hundreds of millions in taxes because jobs. Jobs that may be a real increase or may not. Do we have hard data on that, or just popular wisdom and developer promises? Walmart also claims to create lots of jobs, if you ignore the jobs lost in their competition.

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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby mattaudio » January 15th, 2015, 9:33 am

I'd love to see how the original MOA was sold to the public. "It will become a gathering space for the region." "The rotunda will be a center of the community for events and activities." I think I just barfed a little typing that.

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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby mplsjaromir » January 15th, 2015, 9:36 am

MLK never would have done this. He'd have called Bono and they'd have made a commercial with me and my tolerant friends.

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Re: Mall of America - Bloomington

Postby MNdible » January 15th, 2015, 10:00 am

The protesters knew they were trespassing, but it was worth risking arrest to make their point. So charge them with trespassing, or don't because it's more legal trouble than it's worth.

Everything else is purely punitive, mean spirited, and excessive.


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