Mall of America - Bloomington

[Andrew_F]

There are severe FAA-imposed height restrictions on the property to the east of the MOA. This is also why the old DoubleTree hotel tower was demolished about a decade ago, because it was within the runway exclusion zone.

The Thunderbird!

[mattaudio]

The Thunderbird still exists as a Ramada, on the west side of 24th.

[go4guy]

Why does everyone want the transit station in the mall moved? What is wrong with the current location. It goes basically right into the mall. What more could you ask for? Moving it would just waste a lot of money. For what? Just to move it towards the new "center" of the mall? Seems pointless to me. It connects to the mall. That is all that is needed.

[mulad]

First, the 5-mph slow zone pulling into the station is silly. Second, the station is not set up for through-routing at all. Something on the north side of the mall would have made it possible to interline/continue service along American Boulevard, I-494, or 77th. It would have been faster since the distance is several hundred feet shorter and there wouldn't have needed to be any significant curves (if the buildings that were torn down to make way for piles of dirt from the Lindau Lane project had been taken out at that time instead of last year).

[Tom H.]

[mulad beat me to it]

[mattaudio]

In addition to that, the north side of the existing mall is the future center of gravity once expansions are made across Lindau. Imagine when that parcel is completely developed, getting off the train at the existing transit center near Killebrew Dr and having to walk through the mall nearly to American Blvd.

[go4guy]

So we are willing to throw 10s of millions of dollars at a project so people dont have to walk an extra block inside a mall? That doesnt make much sense to me.

[mulad]

They're spending tons of money in the area, and a lot of it is questionable, including that the mall itself is getting a big chunk of change for their expansion.

[FISHMANPET]

It's gonna be quite a hoof to get from the transit station to the new parts of the mall. ANd also the current route spends way too much time weaving into the station.

Having good transit isn't about checking some box that says "yes a route is here this is transit served" it's about having good transit.

[woofner]

Mulad you forgot one:

[Anondson]

If spending the investment to extend the line to the new wing can be done I hope it would leave an option to further extend the line down the 494 corridor, say to TH 100. Connect to the hotels up and down 494 and the airport.

Wishful thinking again.

[blobs]

If spending the investment to extend the line to the new wing can be done I hope it would leave an option to further extend the line down the 494 corridor, say to TH 100. Connect to the hotels up and down 494 and the airport.

Wishful thinking again.

That's a fantastic idea.

[HiawathaGuy]

I think discussions about how MOA could and possibly should be made better are good. But I also think it's important to keep reality in mind when having those discussions. First of all, the Met Council doesn't have an extra $50 million dollars laying around to alter the current line from the 28th Ave S station to align with the MOA addition. Not to mention that the only American Blvd transit study that's even been discussed and/or done is the BRT study. Frankly there's no money or no desire politically to have that happen in the near future. Not to mention that the state needs to address 494 first - and even that's light years away.

But, back to MOA and it's addition. I take the train to the mall regularly. It's not very difficult to walk from the platform into the mall. People on here make it sound like you'll have to bring a bag lunch, just to make sure you'll get to the new section. But if you take a moment to think about it - walking to the new addition to the north from the LRT platform will be about the same distance as walking to the west side of the mall. Seriously - are we really supposed to spend millions of dollars so that people riding the train to MOA (most are there to transfer to & from buses) have a shorter walk? That's insane, IMO. The fact still remains that the transit hub is a very nice convenience. It serves its purpose - but I don't think it's necessary for millions to be spent to have a 'centrally located' train hub on Lindau Lane.

Would it be nice if it was centralized? SURE.
But it's just not a reality - especially given the fact that there are no plans for rail along American Blvd at the moment.

[David Greene]

If spending the investment to extend the line to the new wing can be done I hope it would leave an option to further extend the line down the 494 corridor, say to TH 100. Connect to the hotels up and down 494 and the airport.

At one time Bloomington had a streetcar envisioned to run on American Blvd. Don't know if it's still in the plans, though. It would serve the same purpose.

[nBode]

Does anyone know why the line wraps around to the south and terminates in the south end of the mall in the first place? It always seemed odd to me that the line didn't go straight west on 81st or 82nd and enter the mall on the northeast end. Why was the extra line laid down to detour it? Especially since Phase II has been in the talks for so long.. Seems like it should have been more obvious to end it at the north/east end. Even without knowing about Phase II specifically, it is obvious there is more room for development on these sides of the mall (huge parking lots).

What am I missing?

[FISHMANPET]

This is what I've heard, from someone who worked at the consulting company that designed the line.

It was planned that the train would go straight into current location, but MOA didn't want the train (or rather they didn't want to pay for it), so the plan was for a ramp just east of the mall as a park and ride, with maybe a skyway to walk to the mall. After construction had started they changed their mind and wanted the train, and for some reason it wasn't possible to implement the more expensive earlier plan, or MOA didn't want to pay that much, or something, so they built this instead.

It's been a few years since I heard the story so I'm sure I'm missing the details. However I do remember that I got the impression that MOA was being slimy about the whole thing, that they wanted the train all along, they just played hardball so they could pay less.

[twincitizen]

Much of that is true, the mall was definitely jerking Metro Transit around with regards to not wanting the train at first, then changing their mind after it was already under construction.

However, you can't move the train without moving the entire MOA transit center with it. Was the transit center already in its current location before the train?

IMO, the best outcome would have been a differently sited P&R (adjacent to the east mall parking ramp, the empty MAC-owned block) connected by a skyway to the Mall. This would have combined 28th Avenue and MOA Station into one, saving time, trackage, and (possibly) reducing the #s of folks who park & ride from MOA parking against the rules. The transit center would have been relocated to the new Park & Ride as well.

Sure, it's a further walk into the mall for transit riders than the current setup, but it would have been accessible and climate controlled, not to mention shaving 2-3 minutes off the train trip.

----

All this talk of extending the train westward forgets several critical components of transit planning: demand/ridership, frequency, and operating expense. I completely agree that the LRT station and MOA transit center should be relocated to the north side of the mall someday. However, there is no way to justify sending LRT trains every 10 minutes further westward on American Boulevard. The cost-effectiveness just won't pan out. Move the MOA LRT Station to a more legible, usable location, preferably integrated into Phase II and boost service on existing suburban local bus routes. LRT along American Blvd ain't.gonna.happen.

[mattaudio]

...unless it's an extension of Riverview rather than the Blue Line.

[FISHMANPET]

Ah, meant east in my post, I suck at directions around the mall. Yes, the 28th Ave ramp would have been in that lot east of the mall instead.

[Mdcastle]

Living in Bloomington I've been following the mall property since the demolition of the met, and was there on opening day. Still I try to stay away now, but I do know a few things about the history

The transit center has always been in the location where it was, buses used to use the area that LRT is in. IRC the original concept was to end the train in the transit center, but the Mall didn't want it, ostensibly because they were afraid of park & riders using their ramp, so the design was changed to end at a ramp across 24th with a skyway, then the mall changed their minds so it went to the transit center after all. Although I think they could have done better I also think it makes more sense for any east-west transit to be an extension of the Riverview line. Notably the plan (now on hiatus) for rebuilding I-494 included room for "future transit" in the median east of US 169 which is rather close to Southwest... That's why there's that space in the median in the rebuilt portion between 100 and 169 and part of the reason why the Lyndale and Penn bridges are so wide.