Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

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David Greene
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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby David Greene » March 16th, 2017, 1:25 pm

In Bloomington? It would be difficult to interline with the Blue Line. Or are you thinking of a different route? I'm thinking Midtown out to Shady Oak could be decent. If we extended tracks to West End in the future we could add another line or A/B Midtown if there isn't capacity for three full lines over the shared trackage.

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Tiller
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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby Tiller » March 16th, 2017, 1:41 pm

I've been under the impression it would require some more money compared to just laying track in the ready-made Greenway (elevating it to meet the blue line, obviously), though would the grading/geometry problems really be that severe?

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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby twincitizen » March 16th, 2017, 2:02 pm

Hennepin County is about to replace the Portland and Cedar bridges, and:
The new bridges, slated to open by Thanksgiving, will mimic the old ones, although the vertical support piers will be aesthetic rather than functional and could be removed if transit is later approved for the corridor.
So no, Midtown rail is not happening anytime soon. If it were, why build the fake piers at all? As much as I agree that it's a slam dunk, no-brainer of a transit investment (especially if <$300MM), it's probably still a generation away. Especially if Hennepin County is going to be possibly be picking up the federal share of Bottineau, etc (see Trump budget killing off the FTA New Starts program). Once/if we've completed the Blue and Green extensions, Orange Line, B, C, D (and E and F, whatever they may be), and ensure that the 0.5% sales tax is enough to fund all of these lines, then we can bring up Midtown rail again. For at least the next decade though, the Lake St aBRT is all we're gonna get in this corridor. Even if in 2020 we return to total DFL control of MN, increase the transit sales tax another .25%; and elect a Democratic President who resurrects New Starts, Small Starts, and TIGER funding at the FTA, rail in the Greenway is probably 10-15 years away at the least.

Let's not derail (heh) the CTIB thread with fantasy routings along rail corridors that won't exist for at least a decade+

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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby FISHMANPET » March 16th, 2017, 2:09 pm

The piers don't necessarily have to be removed for rail service (though it's an option if routing requires obviously). The bigger win is that since they're non structural, they don't have to be reinforced to prevent a structural failure of the bridge if a train were to derail and strike the pier. So even if rail is built tomorrow, the fake piers would stay as long as there's room otherwise for the tracks.
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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby Qhaberl » March 16th, 2017, 2:37 pm

I think you guys might be missing something. Even if Trump kills the small starts/new starts/tiger program, we still might get some transit funding through a whole new bill. This might just be me being optimistic though.


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David Greene
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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby David Greene » March 17th, 2017, 9:43 am

No way we would get transit funding in any bill approved by Republicans.

I'm still doubtful New Starts will get killed completely. Too many cities depend on it and Senators are elected statewide. I have no doubt funding will be reduced.

If New Starts did get killed and SWLRT doesn't make the deadline, would the county really pick up funding for it? If not, would it do Bottineau? Both seem like very heavy lifts.

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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby talindsay » March 18th, 2017, 7:52 am

David, while Republicans talk about killing transit, the reality at both the state and national level has been quite different. Transit did okay under W, and Pawlenty wasn't terrible. While Dems are certainly more transit friendly, it's not strictly a party line issue - it's more urban vs rural, and Republicans don't want to abandon the suburbs, mostly.

Regarding Hennepin doing the lifting alone, I think it's likely. The CTIB had already been moving in the direction of planning not to receive federal money for future lines, and Hennepin is the powerhouse of those discussions.

The disappointing thing about SW and Bottineau in that scenario is that without federal requirements both could be built much more cheaply - often rejecting federal money can barely raise local cost because it removes all the long, detailed process that the feds require. But these two have already gone through that, so local funding would kind of mean worst of both worlds.

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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby Qhaberl » March 18th, 2017, 11:59 am

talindsay wrote:David, while Republicans talk about killing transit, the reality at both the state and national level has been quite different. Transit did okay under W, and Pawlenty wasn't terrible. While Dems are certainly more transit friendly, it's not strictly a party line issue - it's more urban vs rural, and Republicans don't want to abandon the suburbs, mostly.

Regarding Hennepin doing the lifting alone, I think it's likely. The CTIB had already been moving in the direction of planning not to receive federal money for future lines, and Hennepin is the powerhouse of those discussions.

The disappointing thing about SW and Bottineau in that scenario is that without federal requirements both could be built much more cheaply - often rejecting federal money can barely raise local cost because it removes all the long, detailed process that the feds require. But these two have already gone through that, so local funding would kind of mean worst of both worlds.
How exactly would something like that work? What that mean that county and local municipalities would have to increase taxes a good deal? I am personally a huge fan of eliminating the federal government and the state government from these local transit projects. My question is, The federal government seems to kick in a large sum of money. I don't know if we could convince residence Minneapolis. or other cities to increase their taxes that much.


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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby David Greene » March 30th, 2017, 10:38 am

It could still dissolve in 2018, assuming Anoka plays ball, right? Dakota will be out then.

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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby mattaudio » March 30th, 2017, 11:38 am

Yes, CTIB can be a party of one (Dakota) if everyone leaves, right?

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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby twincitizen » March 30th, 2017, 12:22 pm

Dakota has already voted to leave. Dissolving CTIB would have gotten them out a year earlier. They will be out of CTIB at the end of 2018, and the 4 remaining counties could again vote to dissolve CTIB then. But that means Ramsey and Hennepin Counties forego at least a year of additional sales taxes.

Dakota County claims they are owed another $29MM, while CTIB offered $13MM, mostly from Hennepin County's pot. Can we just meet Dakota halfway, as unfair and wrongheaded as they're being? That potential extra $8MM payout from Hennepin County will quickly be recouped within the first half-year of tax collection (7/1/17-12/31/17). Hennepin County is slated to collect about $30MM in new tax revenue just over that time frame, plus another $60MM in 2018. I guess I don't mind Hennepin County handing over an extra $8MM "bribe" now in order to get the remaining $82MM. This just needs to be done.

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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby Tcmetro » March 30th, 2017, 12:54 pm

IMO, it's pretty ridiculous to allow Dakota County to strongarm the other counties for money that will probably end up expanding roads.

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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby SkyScraperKid » March 31st, 2017, 12:36 am

Dakota Co. votes to leave the club, then when the club wants to disband, Dakota blocks them? Wait, I thought they give up the right to vote when they moved to leave the club?


...so does that mean Dakota is staying in the club?

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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 31st, 2017, 8:11 am

No, they're still on track to leave CTIB at the end of 2018. As twincitizen notes, the separate vote to disband the entire CTIB earlier would have been better for everyone - Dakota County would have saved money compared to sticking in CTIB until EOY 2018 and the other CTIB members could have begun collecting more revenue to more than make up for the loss of Dakota County's revenue share.

So, technically yeah Dakota is still in until end of 2018, but they're on their way out. But they still have a vote in matters regarding board business (like voting to disband).

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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby Qhaberl » March 31st, 2017, 10:22 am

It pains me to say this, but I guess at this point, the best thing for Hennepin to do is to just give Dakota County the money they want. Someone else said it earlier. Hennepin county really needs the transportation tax. Especially with things being so crazy at the legislature, both state and national.


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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby Vagueperson » April 1st, 2017, 6:47 am

I can't find a news report on this, just Twitter, but it looks like Senator Dibble added an amendment in a Senate bill that would allow CTIB counties to increase tax 1/5 cent.
"Sen. Latz moves an oral amendment to remove "special or" from the A-11 amend. Adopted. The A-11 amendment is adopted 43-23. #mnleg"
"Allows each of current CTIB counties to impose 1/5-cent sales transpo sales tax after voter approval in a general election. #mnleg"
https://twitter.com/katie_hatt/status/8 ... 2427315201

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Re: Counties Transit Improvement Board (CTIB)

Postby Vagueperson » April 1st, 2017, 6:48 am

so I think that would mean getting the tax increase AND keeping Dakota County money (for now).


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