Bicycle Infrastructure

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
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Mooglemuffins
Nicollet Mall
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby Mooglemuffins » June 27th, 2017, 7:16 am

I used to have to bike up the sharrow on LaSalle as it passed over the interstate to get home, hated it every time. There were always some drivers being asshats about it.

xandrex
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby xandrex » June 27th, 2017, 10:34 am

Mooglemuffins wrote:
June 27th, 2017, 7:16 am
I used to have to bike up the sharrow on LaSalle as it passed over the interstate to get home, hated it every time. There were always some drivers being asshats about it.
I used to use LaSalle to get back home in the afternoons. After several close calls, including a car purposefully grazing me with their mirror and verbal threats from others, I pretty much gave up on it. I started using Nicollet and was surprised by how much better it was: The road is fairly wide, which means you effectively have your own lane in many spots. The three-lane configuration means cars can easily give you extra space. And perhaps best of all, the drivers seem significantly less aggressive. My assumption on this is because Nicollet is cut off, you’re mostly getting local traffic between downtown and Whittier. LaSalle is likely carrying more commuters who live further south and are in a hurry to get home.

EOst
Capella Tower
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby EOst » June 27th, 2017, 10:56 am

Yeah, the sharrows on Lasalle don't work at all. When we had an apartment looking out at Lasalle and Groveland, I'd get the pleasure of calling in a license plate for an incident likes xandrex's every month or two.

PhilmerPhil
Moderator
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby PhilmerPhil » June 27th, 2017, 11:14 am

I've long thought restriping Nicollet like this would match the way it's currently designed today. Basically advisory bike lanes with advisory left turn lanes to create a slow moving shared space with guides on where to drive/ride.

SamtheBusNerd
City Center
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby SamtheBusNerd » June 29th, 2017, 9:16 am

I don't understand why we can't just have regular two lane arterial/collectors with bike lanes and crosswalks be the norm in Minneapolis like in other cities. Nicollet would a great place to start. Get rid of the huge center turn lane and just put in a left turn lane at major intersections. Then move on to Franklin and do the same thing.

Something like this:
Skærmbillede fra 2017-06-29 10-09-21.png
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Sacrelicio
Union Depot
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby Sacrelicio » June 29th, 2017, 9:39 am

SamtheBusNerd wrote:
June 29th, 2017, 9:16 am
I don't understand why we can't just have regular two lane arterial/collectors with bike lanes and crosswalks be the norm in Minneapolis like in other cities. Nicollet would a great place to start. Get rid of the huge center turn lane and just put in a left turn lane at major intersections. Then move on to Franklin and do the same thing.

Something like this:
Skærmbillede fra 2017-06-29 10-09-21.png
They did this on 46th street by me and although most people were fine with it there were a lot of people screaming about it as well. But I agree, both cities need to do this across the board. In south Minneapolis, Lake, Lyndale, Hennepin, and Cedar all need this.

David Greene
IDS Center
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby David Greene » June 29th, 2017, 9:52 am

SamtheBusNerd wrote:
June 29th, 2017, 9:16 am
I don't understand why we can't just have regular two lane arterial/collectors with bike lanes and crosswalks be the norm in Minneapolis like in other cities. Nicollet would a great place to start. Get rid of the huge center turn lane and just put in a left turn lane at major intersections. Then move on to Franklin and do the same thing.
One reason is the large number of curb cuts on Eat Street. People aren't just making lefts at intersections.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby amiller92 » June 29th, 2017, 10:02 am

Sacrelicio wrote:
June 29th, 2017, 9:39 am
They did this on 46th street by me and although most people were fine with it there were a lot of people screaming about it as well.
The screaming is absurd. 46th is way better for all users now. Totally worth some light congestion during rush hour near the freeway.

Granted, I bike on it more than I drive on it, but still.

MNdible
is great.
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby MNdible » June 29th, 2017, 10:15 am

46th is completely fine except for the few blocks from 35W to Nicollet, which are every bit as bad as predicted. I'll be curious if they come back and modify the geometry here. The extent to which the lane markings have been worn away in this stretch over the scant few months it's been open should be indication enough that the lane geometry was not at all based in reality. The bus stops are laughable.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 29th, 2017, 10:19 am

David Greene wrote:
June 29th, 2017, 9:52 am
One reason is the large number of curb cuts on Eat Street. People aren't just making lefts at intersections.
The best thing about Nicollet is that but for maybe 2 block faces (east side of the 2000 block and the northern third of the east 2700 block, plus maybe you could count the Whittier Clinic block) all parking lots people turn into have alley access. Nicollet could be much better if the city just forced them to close off those curb cuts. There are only 33 total curb cuts from Franklin to 29th St, and 26 of them are lots with alternate access points (mostly alleys). I think Nicollet would survive losing the center turn lane, and whatever transit improvements we make on this street should strongly consider that. I'd go so far to say that if a streetcar were built, a sidewalk-level cycle track is a must so bikes aren't forced to ride on the tracks.

David Greene
IDS Center
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby David Greene » June 29th, 2017, 10:26 am

RailBaronYarr wrote:
June 29th, 2017, 10:19 am
all parking lots people turn into have alley access. Nicollet could be much better if the city just forced them to close off those curb cuts.
I 120% agree. <warning: "There outta be a law" ahead>

As we plan for the city's future, we ought to consider zoning/ordinances that require businesses and other developments with alley access to use it. Forbid curb cuts unless there is really no other way to get into the property. It would not only make the pedestrian experience noticeably better, I think it would encourage better building design and certainly street frontage.

I look at the the stuff built along the Greenway and ask, "why do we have all these huge curb cuts?"

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby mattaudio » June 29th, 2017, 11:30 am

P sure based on my reading of parking regulations in our zoning code, parking access through alleys is largely prohibited for commercial parking lots and larger multifamily. Yes, that is wrongheaded and should be changed.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby amiller92 » June 29th, 2017, 12:20 pm

RailBaronYarr wrote:
June 29th, 2017, 10:19 am
a sidewalk-level cycle track
On that subject, I've used the not-yet-officially-open ones on Washington a bit and the ones on Portland and Park and pedestrians standing in them while waiting to cross the street is a real issue. Are we missing a design element that's supposed to help with that? Or will pedestrians figure it out once there's real bike volumes?

SurlyLHT
US Bank Plaza
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby SurlyLHT » June 29th, 2017, 1:30 pm

The cycletracks on Park/Portland also have the issue of cars coming out of the ramps stopping on them. Whenever I try to use them on my commute home I have to veer around a vehicle. It seems like putting a small speed bump or something to indicate to the driver where they need to stop might be useful

David Greene
IDS Center
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby David Greene » June 29th, 2017, 1:42 pm

SurlyLHT wrote:
June 29th, 2017, 1:30 pm
The cycletracks on Park/Portland also have the issue of cars coming out of the ramps stopping on them. Whenever I try to use them on my commute home I have to veer around a vehicle. It seems like putting a small speed bump or something to indicate to the driver where they need to stop might be useful
This is another problem with curb cuts. It's not comfortable for the driver to "hang back" and keep the sidewalk/bike path/whatever clear because you want to get moving when there's open space. It's harder to judge that when you're sitting back 10 feet from the travel lane. Also, it's sad but just a true reality that blocking the sidewalk makes for fewer things to juggle for the driver. Bikes/peds will generally wait or go back around the car, eliminating one conflict point. I'm not saying it's right, it's just how it is. Plus sightlines are often much worse. It's a safety issue for everyone involved.

I agree with you that cars sitting on paths/sidewalks are a big part of the pedestrian-unfriendliness of curb cuts.

SurlyLHT
US Bank Plaza
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Joined: February 21st, 2017, 3:50 pm

Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby SurlyLHT » June 29th, 2017, 1:48 pm

I agree with the curb cuts. I live in an 12 unit building and our parking is off of the alley. It's nice as a resident given that it's easier to exit the alley than deal with the traffic in front of our building. It also provides some space for the kids to bike around and play without worrying about passing cars.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
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Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 29th, 2017, 2:12 pm

amiller92 wrote:
June 29th, 2017, 12:20 pm
On that subject, I've used the not-yet-officially-open ones on Washington a bit and the ones on Portland and Park and pedestrians standing in them while waiting to cross the street is a real issue. Are we missing a design element that's supposed to help with that? Or will pedestrians figure it out once there's real bike volumes?
This came up on the last page (here). One thing common at Dutch intersections is the cycle track bending "out" which then provides space for people waiting to cross the street in the direction perpendicular to the bike facility. If there's on-street parking, you can bulb out at the intersection instead to provide that waiting space. There's certainly an argument that too many pedestrians could mean the waiting area is inadequate (as MNdible described), but I suspect in most places in the city, at most times of the day, this wouldn't be a problem. Putting the raised bike facility right against the curb all the way to the corner, and in a material that is barely different than the sidewalk (darker gray concrete as opposed to a colored asphalt) makes it harder for peds to distinguish the space.

EOst
Capella Tower
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby EOst » June 29th, 2017, 6:41 pm

RailBaronYarr wrote:
June 29th, 2017, 2:12 pm
Putting the raised bike facility right against the curb all the way to the corner, and in a material that is barely different than the sidewalk (darker gray concrete as opposed to a colored asphalt) makes it harder for peds to distinguish the space.
The new bikeway on Jackson St in downtown Saint Paul is asphalt with a painted centerline and very large bike symbols, and pedestrians still walk in it. No need to give people the benefit of the doubt here; they just don't care.

bptenor
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 142
Joined: November 11th, 2012, 9:28 pm

Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby bptenor » June 29th, 2017, 6:56 pm

Also, I see approx 3 cars per DAY drive down the Jackson CCB because they think it's a special car lane, and they turn across 2 lanes of traffic to get to it. Low and behold they are on the sidewalk. It is very well marked, and nothing else on the ROW is asphalt, but it's really hard to fix stupid.

upzoned
Block E
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Joined: August 9th, 2016, 11:56 am

Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby upzoned » July 1st, 2017, 8:24 pm

bptenor wrote:
June 29th, 2017, 6:56 pm
a special car lane
:lol:


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