Bicycle Infrastructure

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
xandrex
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby xandrex » January 19th, 2017, 3:56 pm

Streetview isn't always a good guide depending on the time of day, but, wow, that street just has no cars on it. The argument is especially odd because Bloomington appears to have alley access on both sides the whole length of this proposed bike lane.

mattaudio
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby mattaudio » January 19th, 2017, 3:57 pm

I also thought advisory bike lanes would have been appropriate on Bloomington from 38th St to 54th St.

EOst
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby EOst » January 19th, 2017, 5:14 pm

I agree, at least to 46th. North of there the traffic numbers start to get high enough that I'd rather see real lanes.

I'd love to see the advisory bike lane layout become standard for low-traffic collector roads (esp. >4k per day) in the Twin Cities, like 42nd Ave in Longfellow or 24th St in Whittier/the Wedge, with upgrades to standard bike lanes where warranted. That layout might even be preferable under certain circumstances, because of the (hopefully) lower speeds.

mattaudio
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby mattaudio » January 19th, 2017, 5:18 pm

Speaking of 42nd Ave in Longfellow, I sent in a message suggesting centerline removal and advisory bike lanes as part of the city's Mill and Overlay a year or two ago. The project lead got back to me and basically said that they didn't have enough resources to reassess striping for every street that comes up for M&O or chip sealing. I understand that, but it still seems frustrating and a huge missed opportunity.

amiller92
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby amiller92 » January 20th, 2017, 9:19 am

EOst wrote:Just out of curiosity, for those who live in the area: How has your experience been with the advisory bike lane on 54th Street? I liked the ones on 14th in Eliot Park, but I've never been on 54th.

I notice their letter mentions those lanes on 54th, presumably because that design retains previous parking.
It's not something we should repeat.

I like the lack of center line in that I think it actually does help slow cars. But the advisory bike lane means that cars regularly drive in the bike lane. Like all the time. Just cruising along with half of their car over the line.

That said, have ridden in it and felt okay and my complaint about cars is mostly from when I drive it. But I don't really see why it needed to be advisory instead of actually striped.

amiller92
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby amiller92 » January 20th, 2017, 9:21 am

xandrex wrote:Streetview isn't always a good guide depending on the time of day, but, wow, that street just has no cars on it. The argument is especially odd because Bloomington appears to have alley access on both sides the whole length of this proposed bike lane.
I counted last night around 5:00. 43 parked cars over five blocks. Most used block had 17.

I counted again this morning around 8:00. 51 parked cars over five blocks. Most used block had 24.

There are alleys on both sides and I'm pretty sure each house has access.

ETA: To be fair, those who live adjacent to the intersection with 52nd will probably have to park around the corner sometimes because Hot Plate does draw some traffic in the mornings and early afternoons.

PhilmerPhil
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby PhilmerPhil » January 20th, 2017, 9:38 am

amiller92 wrote: I like the lack of center line in that I think it actually does help slow cars. But the advisory bike lane means that cars regularly drive in the bike lane. Like all the time. Just cruising along with half of their car over the line.
That's how they're supposed to work though. Cars can drive in the bike lanes, but the dashed demarcate the space they should be giving when passing people on bikes. Think of them as a hybrid of sharrows and standard bike lanes. Every time I've biked advisory lanes, I feel just as (if not more) safe as I do in standard bike lanes. Drivers seem to be more aware, slow, and give me plenty of room when passing.

amiller92
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby amiller92 » January 20th, 2017, 10:03 am

PhilmerPhil wrote:That's how they're supposed to work though. Cars can drive in the bike lanes, but the dashed demarcate the space they should be giving when passing people on bikes. Think of them as a hybrid of sharrows and standard bike lanes. Every time I've biked advisory lanes, I feel just as (if not more) safe as I do in standard bike lanes. Drivers seem to be more aware, slow, and give me plenty of room when passing.
Maybe it's just me then, but there's plenty of room to not drive in the bike lane.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby RailBaronYarr » January 20th, 2017, 10:12 am

My take on advisory lanes is that if cars are going fast enough that they'd have to slow down to give berth, and there are enough of them that marking the pavement with dashed lines is a necessary precaution for riders, I don't want my kid biking on them. He's almost 3 and can still ride in the bike seat (and cargo bike for a while longer), but will soon be out pedaling on his own with me. And I'd like for him to be able to go biking places by himself by age 7-8ish. Advisory bike lanes, heck even painted bike lanes, don't give me the confidence to allow him to do that.

EOst
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby EOst » January 20th, 2017, 3:21 pm

RailBaronYarr wrote:My take on advisory lanes is that if cars are going fast enough that they'd have to slow down to give berth, and there are enough of them that marking the pavement with dashed lines is a necessary precaution for riders, I don't want my kid biking on them. He's almost 3 and can still ride in the bike seat (and cargo bike for a while longer), but will soon be out pedaling on his own with me. And I'd like for him to be able to go biking places by himself by age 7-8ish. Advisory bike lanes, heck even painted bike lanes, don't give me the confidence to allow him to do that.
Sure, but what do you do when a protected lane (basically the only infra. I'd trust a solo 8-year-old on) isn't feasible, either technically or politically?

I don't know. Saint Paul is full of streets that could use bike infrastructure but where standard bike lanes (and their necessary parking removal) are probably never going to be politically feasible. A great example is be Case Ave, in Payne-Phalen. Easily the flattest and most natural east/west bike route in the neighborhood (AADT around 3k), but slated to get sharrows instead of bike lanes because of a desire to preserve parking. I'd love to see if an advisory bike lane layout could work there instead.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby RailBaronYarr » January 20th, 2017, 4:16 pm

My tune would probably change a bit if I were ever a paid staff or running for elected office or even leading a bike advocacy group, but I just find it so so so hard to take the political arguments around free on-street parking seriously. I say this as a fairly able-bodied white male who feels confident taking lanes as needed: it would be super easy for me to just be fine with that level of infrastructure. But when parking can be taken, but isn't, at best the city is saying we don't care about how comfortable 80% of the population will feel using that facility (or, likely NOT using it), and at worst it's saying we don't care that it puts the people who do use it at greater risk of injury or death than doing something more.

SkyScraperKid
Nicollet Mall
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby SkyScraperKid » January 20th, 2017, 7:39 pm

EOst wrote:
RailBaronYarr wrote:My take on advisory lanes is that if cars are going fast enough that they'd have to slow down to give berth, and there are enough of them that marking the pavement with dashed lines is a necessary precaution for riders, I don't want my kid biking on them. He's almost 3 and can still ride in the bike seat (and cargo bike for a while longer), but will soon be out pedaling on his own with me. And I'd like for him to be able to go biking places by himself by age 7-8ish. Advisory bike lanes, heck even painted bike lanes, don't give me the confidence to allow him to do that.
Sure, but what do you do when a protected lane (basically the only infra. I'd trust a solo 8-year-old on) isn't feasible, either technically or politically?

I don't know. Saint Paul is full of streets that could use bike infrastructure but where standard bike lanes (and their necessary parking removal) are probably never going to be politically feasible. A great example is be Case Ave, in Payne-Phalen. Easily the flattest and most natural east/west bike route in the neighborhood (AADT around 3k), but slated to get sharrows instead of bike lanes because of a desire to preserve parking. I'd love to see if an advisory bike lane layout could work there instead.
saint paul is pretty bad at having bike lanes. I don't get while the central rail line does NOT have a bike trail. The blue line has a bike trail, the green line extension will have a bike trail, and I think even the blue line extension will have one too. saint paul should build a bike trail near the central rail line too. They have a lot of catching up to do!

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mamundsen
US Bank Plaza
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby mamundsen » January 20th, 2017, 8:02 pm

Charles Ave (2 blocks north of University) is a bike boulevard.

https://www.stpaul.gov/DocumentCenter/V ... 468187.pdf

SkyScraperKid
Nicollet Mall
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby SkyScraperKid » January 20th, 2017, 9:01 pm

mamundsen wrote:Charles Ave (2 blocks north of University) is a bike boulevard.

https://www.stpaul.gov/DocumentCenter/V ... 468187.pdf
1. I said bike TRAIL
2. Charles Ave does not connect from end to end (Target Field to Union Depot)

completely different.

seanrichardryan
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby seanrichardryan » January 20th, 2017, 10:39 pm

shut it down folks. Nothing to read here.
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

Silophant
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby Silophant » January 21st, 2017, 10:01 am

So, basically, the LRT lines are getting adjacent bike trails where (and only where) they run on old rail corridors that give enough space to easily put a bike trail beside them. So the Blue Line has one where it's on the rail corridor along Hiawatha, and the extensions will have them for the portions that run along rail lines. For the portions of the LRT lines that run down surface streets (all of the Green Line, but also the Blue Line in downtown and south of the VA Medical Center), there wasn't otherwise unused land to just plop a bike trail on, so we didn't.

EOst
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby EOst » January 25th, 2017, 10:17 am

Image

(check out the location)

amiller92
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby amiller92 » January 25th, 2017, 10:19 am

Quincy speaks (via form email, but still):
Thank you for your interest in the Bloomington Ave project scheduled for this summer. We have received great input from residents about this project. Most of the comments are either in support of the bike lanes, or express concerns not to the bike lanes themselves, but to the removal of parking. So I have asked the City traffic engineers to develop another plan that will allow for bike infrastructure, and continued parking along this stretch.
Some of the layouts they are contemplating are not standard, and since this section of Bloomington Ave is a Minnesota State Aid (MSA) route, they will need to obtain consent from MnDOT before they can complete their planning. So the City is still developing a plan for bike lanes on Bloomington Ave that will allow for parking along that stretch, but also will be acceptable to MnDOT.
We’ll keep you and the HPDL neighborhood association apprised of the progress in these plans.
So his solution is to build a non-standard, less safe bike lane to so we can keep unused parking. Man. :roll:

EOst
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby EOst » January 25th, 2017, 10:22 am

Might be worth forwarding that email to the Bike Coalition folks, just in case they aren't in the loop on it.

mattaudio
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Re: Bicycle Infrastructure

Postby mattaudio » January 25th, 2017, 10:25 am

He can ask staff to do that, but my reading of the city's Complete Streets Policy is that the entire council would need to approve a deviation from the modal priority framework as he is proposing.


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