Twin Cities Future Transit Map

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » December 7th, 2012, 7:08 pm

That's the W 7th St. Corridor BRT (Union to MSP and MOA)
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby mattaudio » December 8th, 2012, 6:16 pm

Maybe your brown line should interline with Gateway, since that's a possibility:
Thanks for the great comments. Enhanced St. Paul express service is also on MVTA’s future service plans as funding allows. The station-to-station Red Line service has not been envisioned to through-route along West Seventh, but could be technically possible as you note. Setting organizations and politics aside, a few big challenges remain.

As currently planned, we anticipate needing at least 10-minute headways on West Seventh. At least for the near term, Red Line service will be 15-minute frequency. It may be difficult or inefficient to serve very different demand and service levels on the two corridors.

Another factor in the mix is that as envisioned in the ATCS study, West Seventh and East Seventh would be more likely to interline. This would provide a significant access boost to residents of St. Paul’s east side. We feel the Maplewood-MOA route would have a reliable cycle time, but extending this long cycle (another hour) to incorporate Red Line is not likely feasible.

Lastly, the scale and cost of station infrastructure is very different between the METRO and arterial BRT corridors. As applied, this could result in confusion over the services’ brand promises or much higher costs to scale up West Seventh stations. To this end, neighborhood engagement efforts have strongly favored the smaller (but improved, technology-laden) station concepts of the ATCS.

For the foreseeable future, a connection at MOA is likely the most frequent approach for downtown St. Paul travel outside of peak hours. In either case, I strongly agree with the need for a quick turnaround at MOA. Efforts may begin soon to envision a big improvement to the (region’s largest by trips and passengers) MOA Transit Center.

Thanks again,

Charles Carlson, AICP
Manager of Transitway Projects
Metro Transit Service Development

Metro Transit
560 6th Ave N
Minneapolis, MN 55411

Lancestar2

Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Lancestar2 » December 8th, 2012, 9:51 pm

may I suggest using the same shades of green and blue as are the "official shades" I think it would be a bit more in reality. It's fun to pretend all the proposed lines will get built :) I really do like your maps they are very modern and much better than anything I seen from Metro Transit. Also I would also suggest adding commuter rail and the Red line

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » December 9th, 2012, 11:37 am

Maybe your brown line should interline with Gateway, since that's a possibility:
Did you mean to say West 7th (Maplewood) rather than Gateway, since that's what it actually says in the quoted post?
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » December 9th, 2012, 7:57 pm

Currently is there any indication that the West 7th St Corridor is being considered for a Metro BRT route (rather than aerial BRT)?
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby twincitizen » December 9th, 2012, 8:06 pm

I don't think so. Some people will never give up the notion of it becoming LRT someday, despite demand/reality.

The one aBRT/streetcar line that I think WILL be designated as part of the METRO system is the Midtown Greenway connector, due to it being grade separated and most like LRT (if not actual LRT vehicles rather than streetcar).

Metro designation for BRT seems to be only for freeway/shoulder running routes. I'd count Gateway in as part of METRO.

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » December 9th, 2012, 8:29 pm

I don't have an opinion either way. From a visual standpoint, there is some benefit to having everything appear neat and unified like so: http://goo.gl/4XQUa

Note that Green and Gateway lines are shown as interlining, but so are the W 7th and E 7th pair.
Last edited by Visualizer on December 9th, 2012, 8:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » December 9th, 2012, 8:37 pm

may I suggest using the same shades of green and blue as are the "official shades" I think it would be a bit more in reality. It's fun to pretend all the proposed lines will get built :) I really do like your maps they are very modern and much better than anything I seen from Metro Transit. Also I would also suggest adding commuter rail and the Red line
Thanks for the comment. I will consider using official colors, but then we now have a chance to do better. So why just stop there? ;)
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » December 10th, 2012, 1:08 am


The one aBRT/streetcar line that I think WILL be designated as part of the METRO system is the Midtown Greenway connector, due to it being grade separated and most like LRT (if not actual LRT vehicles rather than streetcar).
So then, would the Midtown Greenway line run parallel to the Lake St. "A-BRT"?
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby twincitizen » December 10th, 2012, 1:28 am

The Alternatives Analysis is still underway on that corridor to determine the preferred route.

My gut tells me there is too much momentum for nothing to happen in the Greenway. It (Midtown LRT/Streetcar) was basically promised by the pushers of the Kenilworth (3A) alignment as a consolation prize for not choosing the Uptown (3C) routing. City Council supports it, The Greenway Coalition supports it. I really doubt that there would be a large-scale parallel investment on Lake Street. Some modest improvements could happen, but probably not enough to be part of the aBRT network. The 21 will always be slower route, due to its evenly spread out boardings and cross-town (short block) nature.

So to sum that up, yes to a Midtown LRT connection between the Lake Street Stations of the Green and Blue lines, no to also including Lake Street aBRT.

In the (distant) future, the real trick is going to be figuring out how the heck do we extend the Midtown Corridor east of Hiawatha??

Also, in response to your previous map, can you make W 7th and E 7th a single color, since it does appear likely (or at least feasible) that they will be interlined.

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby NickP » December 10th, 2012, 8:36 am

Has anyone heard if opinions of LRT on West 7th in St Paul have changed? I know it was shot down previously, and BRT was preferred, but I was wondering if the popularity of other lines has changed residents' views. The whole idea of the transit triangle really causes me to nerd out hahah.

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby David Greene » December 10th, 2012, 11:48 am

It might be helpful to include the routes selected by CTIB here:

http://www.mnrides.org/transit-projects/transit-map

I saw this map at the Union Depot opening and was struck by how different it is from the Met Council and even TLC maps. Now, the law says CTIB can't fund anything that isn't in the Met Council's regional development framework but it at least gives a glimpse of what they're thinking. Sure, some of these lines are probably the political equivalent of cat treats and won't actually happen but *someone* wants them.

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby David Greene » December 10th, 2012, 11:52 am

So to sum that up, yes to a Midtown LRT connection between the Lake Street Stations of the Green and Blue lines, no to also including Lake Street aBRT.
I have some sympathy for what you're saying but I also wonder if a streetcar wouldn't be better on Lake Street. That's where the retail is. I fear a Greenway streetcar would be only for people to go *through* the area and not *to* the area.

Of course, with really good wayfinding and multimodal access a Greeway streetcar could pull people over to Lake Street. But it is more difficult.

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » December 10th, 2012, 12:10 pm

It might be helpful to include the routes selected by CTIB here:

http://www.mnrides.org/transit-projects/transit-map

I saw this map at the Union Depot opening and was struck by how different it is from the Met Council and even TLC maps. Now, the law says CTIB can't fund anything that isn't in the Met Council's regional development framework but it at least gives a glimpse of what they're thinking. Sure, some of these lines are probably the political equivalent of cat treats and won't actually happen but *someone* wants them.
The Met already has an equivalent of that map though. It's called the 2030 Transitway System: http://i50.tinypic.com/6s857n.jpg
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby twincitizen » December 10th, 2012, 12:11 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor; West 7th has neither the ridership nor the right-of-way for LRT. I don't understand the desire for the triangle. Just because it makes a shape? An interlined aBRT line from Maplewood Mall to Airport/MOA with signal priority would be a substantial improvement over what we have now at a fairly low cost.

Re: David Greene; Actually all of those lines on the CTIB map are on the Met Council's 2030 map, albeit in a different format. I totally agree with the "cat treats" comment. Keep in mind the CTIB map is more or less subject to the political whims of a small body of various elected county officials. To paraphrase a saying I heard recently: they're interested in shovels, not brooms. Hence why CTIB is hesitant to fund aBRT, despite the incredible cost-effectiveness compared to building another LRT or freeway BRT line. It's also probably why something like Riverview Corridor shows up on the CTIB map. It's likely that some Ramsey County commissioners have been in office for eternity and feel some personal connection to past/failed proposals like Riverview.

Re: Midtown; You're right that the Greenway connector would be more about moving people through, but you say that like it's a entirely bad thing. It's not like service on the 21 would be reduced (much). When SW Green Line and 35W Orange Line are up and running, the need for a higher speed connection between the various lines will be justified and the Greenway ROW is simply too good to waste.

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » December 10th, 2012, 12:36 pm

I started a dropbox folderr where you can share planning documents about ongoing and future transit projects.
To join the public folder: click 'download' at the top right corner of the page, then choose 'add to my dropbox' (you will need to create a new dropbox account if you don't already have it).

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zunb2ul42tflnh7/3XuqGppo7O


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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Tcmetro » December 10th, 2012, 1:16 pm

The positioning of the Midtown LRT and Lake Street is extremely reminiscent of Chicago's L lines. Look at the Red Line and Broadway, the Blue Line and Milwaukee, or the Pink Line and Cermak Road. Placing the light rail only one block away allows access to the shopping, but also allows fast travel in the corridor.

As for Riverview, residents didn't want it on W 7th, and LRT is a stretch to begin with, basically putting it in the graveyard. Not to mention the expense of a river crossing and a path to the existing LRT tunnel at Fort Snelling.

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby mulad » December 10th, 2012, 3:19 pm

Not to belabor the point too much, but I think West 7th has an advantage because it is a fairly constrained corridor. Transit tends to do well in areas that are squeezed into a narrow band due to geography, either because of a barrier or because of an amenity, and sometimes one geographic feature can be both. People like to live near water (oceans, lakes, rivers) and near mountains. We don't really have any mountains here, but there are some significant bluffs along the corridor, and aside for the I-35E and Smith Ave bridges, the Mississippi River prevents travel over a 180-degree range. On the other side, the number of roads that climb the bluffs and cross over I-35E are fairly limited. So yes, the corridor doesn't have great population density, but the natural flow of traffic seems to be northeast/southwest anyway.

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby NickP » December 10th, 2012, 7:46 pm

re Twincitizen's comments: I thought the corridor was shot down mostly because residents didn't want it. In an case, feasibility aside, have resident opinion changed? Is it changing? I am fine with aBRT as well, I just thought it was less ridership levels and more resident opposition that stopped this line "in its tracks." ( Sorry for the bad pun. :) )

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » December 11th, 2012, 10:55 am

What do you guys think about this official map that is currently hanging at the Target Field station? How do you like the relative scale of things? It is highly abstract.

Notice, for example, that the downtown area is placed at 90 degree angle rather than 45 degree angle. SW LRT line appears to be of the same length as the DT -- MOA stretch of the Blue Line.


photo credit: Mike Hicks
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