B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

[eluko]

Transit riders will always lean towards the short term and engineers will always lean towards the long term.
Calling it a money sucking operation doesn't make sense though considering we've been building non profit highways since 1920. With fared transit you at least have the opportunity to break even. And I have it on good authority that you've been drinking tap water which clearly means you're a socialist!

[David Greene]

The project also will recommend the best method of delivering transit service in the Midtown Corridor: light rail, streetcar or bus rapid transit.

And I hope it stays that way! A bus would be really inappropriate in the Greenway. I can't imagine riding a bike in a trench next to buses. It really does not sound pleasant.

Uh, don't you ride a bike on streets next to buses?

This is a trench. Very different noise and pollution effects. And no, it's not pleasant to ride a bike on a busy street, much less next to a bus.

And I'm sorry if you would find it unpleasant, but those elderly and disabled individuals that ride the 21 might prefer to save 20 minutes on crossing town.

C'mon this s just disingenuous. People can get around on all different kinds of transit modes, including rail. Hell, the LRT is easier for people with physical challenges than a bus. Besides, riders of the 21 aren't going to use a very limited stop service in the Greenway.

I understand, though, that people who don't take the bus don't get that people who do take the bus are already used to walking at least a block, and so they think it would be an odious burden, which makes this idea politically fraught.

Have you even *read* the previous posts? I am a freequent bus rider, especially of the 53 and 21.

[Tcmetro]

Stop spacing is going to be 1/2-3/4 mile, which is about as local as you can get for a rail service. Many people using the 21 will move over to a greenway line. It won't replace the local buses on Lake St, but it will certainly reduce demand for them.

[David Greene]

How come trolley buses are not a mode choice in the Twin Cities?

For example, Metro Transit's planned aBRT system could be converted to electrified trolleybuses in the future. At that point the streetcar vs. aBRT argument has basically been reduced to an argument about whether the tires should be made of steel or rubber. A lot of the benefits of streetcar fall away if it was streetcar vs. trolleybus, rather than streetcar vs. noisy, smelly diesel bus.

I agree that we should consider trolley buses, especially along the a"BRT" routes. However, that would not match the experience of a streetcar. A trolley bus suffers from the same jerky motions of a diesel bus. Rail is a much smoother, higher-quality ride. Don't dismiss the ride quality.

These questions are not trivial, but politicians don't care. They just picture themselves at the ribbon cutting and nothing else matters.

That's not the public officials' job. That's the job of the staff. The public officials are there to make the big-picture decisions given the technical analysis from the staff.

And no, there is no snark in my statement. That *is* their job.

Just because you're a pro-transit democrat doesn't mean cost issues aren't important. This is expensive shit we're talking about here.

/tirade

It's a trade-off. Is the quality of rail worth the cost? We're doing this study to find out. Then we make the decision.

[David Greene]

Stop spacing is going to be 1/2-3/4 mile, which is about as local as you can get for a rail service. Many people using the 21 will move over to a greenway line. It won't replace the local buses on Lake St, but it will certainly reduce demand for them.

That's true. I was referring to bus riders with physical challenges where the extra ground to cover between 1/4 mile stops is too much. It's disingenuous to say that we shouldn't build rail because it won't serve the disabled. Those who want to use a limited-stop service in the Greeway will. Those who need the very close stop spacing of the 21 will continue to use that. There is no way the 21 on Lake is going to go away any time soon.

[Matt]

Sort of related to this conversation:

How come trolley buses are not a mode choice in the Twin Cities? You get the electric operation of LRT/Streetcar without the enormous capital expenditure of rail or disruption to local businesses. Much quicker implementation. Trolley buses are not uncommon...seems odd that we don't even consider them.

For example, Metro Transit's planned aBRT system could be converted to electrified trolleybuses in the future. At that point the streetcar vs. aBRT argument has basically been reduced to an argument about whether the tires should be made of steel or rubber. A lot of the benefits of streetcar fall away if it was streetcar vs. trolleybus, rather than streetcar vs. noisy, smelly diesel bus.

Trolley buses went out of style in most cities in the 1960s. They were the vehicle of choice as streetcar lines stopped being implemented but once diesel buses caught on they mostly disappeared. Diesel buses were far cheaper back in the 1950s and 1960s than electric factoring in fuel vs electricity and the cost of maintaining the catenary. The installation of catenary and maintenance of it got to be quite costly. It was also difficult to reroute trolley buses when there was major road construction. I think trolley buses are mostly still in service in cities with major hills, like San Francisco and Seattle. I just read a really cool book called "The Milwaukee Transport Era" which was all about the rise and fall of trolley buses in Milwaukee (my hometown).

[mattaudio]

Trolleybuses need poles up to a conductor wire and a ground wire. They therefore cannot use pantographs, so they're more likely to get disconnected. I think there's also something that affects these systems in cold/icy weather. There's a reason why cities are getting rid of their legacy trolleybus networks as they switch to hybrid/electric buses etc.

[David Greene]

I think trolley buses are mostly still in service in cities with major hills, like San Francisco and Seattle. I just read a really cool book called "The Milwaukee Transport Era" which was all about the rise and fall of trolley buses in Milwaukee (my hometown).

I was going to cite Seattle. Thanks for that, I learned something new.

[kbee]

Metro Transit is hosting a pair of Midtown AA Open Houses on January 28th and 29th. The purpose is to introduce the project and allow for public comment on the purpose and need of the project. The dates/locations are as follows:

Monday, January 28th
6-8pm
Colin Powell Center, 3rd Floor
2924 4th Avenue S
Minneapolis

Tuesday, January 29th
6-8pm
Whittier Park Rec Center, Multi-Purpose Room
425 W 26th St
Minneapolis

You can find more details on the project here: http://www.metrotransit.org/midtown-tra ... -home.aspx.

[RailBaronYarr]

First time post here so don't rail on me too much...

Whether this is rail or bus, is anyone not concerned with the fact that it stops at Hiawatha? Seems to be a major oversight not to bring it all the way to St Paul down Marshall/Selby. My experience it the 21 takes too long if you're commuting to StP (or just heading that way) due to the jaunts it makes, and the 53 stops being useful once it gets on the freeway. To me, the E-W connections between the lakes and downtown StP cannot be overdone, and we don't really have good corridors for this right now. If someone wants to live in Minneapolis or StP south of 94 without a car, you're options for getting around basically revolve around going to the downtown of the city you live in. Anything else takes pretty much an hour one-way..

I thought I saw the arterial transit study that focused on Lake at least going to Snelling http://metrotransit.org/arterial-study Why do we have SO many studies overlapping without real outcomes on a plan moving forward??

[mattaudio]

Welcome to the forum.

I realize why the service would terminate at Hiawatha now, but I am concerned the existing proposal leaves a stub track at at grade at Hiawatha with limited options for future expansion. As you say, the proposed streetcar wouldn't directly replace the 21 or the 53. But it should have the capacity to take over those roles in the future.

Froggie and others have had ideas to push underground at the current proposed terminus (nw corner of the the Hi-Lake SPUI) then emerge at grade east of 28th Ave. Then a streetcar could run in shared ROW across the bridge and continue on to St. Paul.

I thought it would make sense for the first phase to terminate at the LRT platforms at both ends (West Lake and Hiawatha)-- to facilitate future interlining, better amenities, etc. Here was my idea to tie in with the existing elevated section to terminate at Lake Street: http://goo.gl/maps/sEgwg - then the streetcars could go to a slip track between 32nd and 35th, then go to the other end of the train and drive it back into the station.

I think one of the easiest ways to route it to St. Paul would be to share an expansion with Riverview, partially using the CP Ford Spur corridor. Imagine trains used an upper deck on the Fort Road bridge (along with a new proper recreational trail connection)... there could be a full wye just north of the Fort Snelling station. Some trains could interline from MOA to St. Paul via Fort Snelling, and Midtown trains could interline from Uptown to St. Paul via VA Medical Center. This would also provide much better connectivity for S. Mpls and southern suburbs to St. Paul, eliminating potential double connections to reach St. Paul via crosstown buses.

[woofner]

Whether this is rail or bus, is anyone not concerned with the fact that it stops at Hiawatha?

In the summary for the Nov 15th TAC meeting, they mention one of the TAC members asking this same question, and say "It was noted that the study should consider how an eastern extension would connect with the locally preferred alternative (LPA)." I guess we'll have to wait till the public meeting to find out if that means that the study will actually consider this or if it was just a suggestion. I sure hope the former.

[Andrew_F]

Public comments are up: http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... -final.pdf

[Tcmetro]

Looks like Metro Transit will be advancing the Lake St Arterial BRT and the Midtown Greenway single/double track alternatives.

http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... h-maps.pdf

[Le Sueur]

PRT, PRT, PRT! Really no takers?

[MSPtoMKE]

Yes, Personal Rapid Transit! The technology that combines the convenience of public transit with the efficiency of private automobiles! What could go wrong?

[Le Sueur]

They'd be perfect for cyclists on the Greenway during winter. They could just pedal into one, strap into a near Flintstones type propulsion system and have just enough pedal power left to power the little heater that makes the whole thing perfect for April snowstorms!

Edit:
Interesting they are looking a combination of the Double/Single Track street car and BRT. My first thought was they would be cannibalizing each other. Maybe the BRT could drop a station or two in uptown and act as more of an express between West Lake and Midtown and then continue East. Still seems odd though. Anyone able to explain the rationale here?

[Tcmetro]

I think the idea is a streetcar line from between West Lake and Hiawatha, and an arterial BRT line from Hiawatha to Snelling.

[talindsay]

Yes, Personal Rapid Transit! The technology that combines the convenience of public transit with the efficiency of private automobiles! What could go wrong?

Awesome. You nailed it.

[twincitizen]

Love the stop spacing on the greenway streetcar.

I like that they will study enhanced bus on Lake Street as well as Midtown Streetcar. They serve differnet purposes and have vastly different implementation timelines. The only part I don't like is that it's a cop out for studying a way to extend the streetcar eastward, and it practically says as much in the report. If they build the streetcar as planned, it likely will never get extended.

I say this with maximum snark, but it's too bad the Sabo bridge didn't just fall apart completely (not hurting anyone obviously) so we could build a proper bridge capable of carrying bikes and a streetcar line.