B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4617
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby David Greene » May 14th, 2014, 7:59 pm

I really do think connecting West End to Penn Ave station is worthwhile, but I don't think the service interlining with Midtown (via Kenilworth) would make much sense - it wouldn't provide downtown connectivity for the Midtown Corridor *or* West End branch riders.
Given that downtown can't take any more trains without additional tracks, I don't see how this is really a detriment to either idea.

illman00
City Center
Posts: 49
Joined: March 18th, 2014, 8:52 pm

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby illman00 » May 15th, 2014, 3:05 pm

What about an autonomous train car that is one track and one car that goes from west end up the cedar lake trail top Penn station and back.

mplser
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 659
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 11:43 pm
Location: Elliot Park

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby mplser » May 15th, 2014, 8:26 pm

What about an autonomous train car that is one track and one car that goes from west end up the cedar lake trail top Penn station and back.
autonomous train through a park where deer live?

MinnMonkey
Landmark Center
Posts: 216
Joined: July 6th, 2012, 11:31 am

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby MinnMonkey » June 28th, 2014, 8:43 am

Is there any reason why we couldn't start this line tiny? I am thinking a single track from the West Lake LRT station to Lyndale with additional stops at East Calhoun Parkway and Hennepin.

This route could be short enough to only need a single train running back and forth at a time, so we may only need to purchase 2 or 3 cars keeping costs way down. Also, since there would only be one vehicle on the tracks at a time, initially we could have the stations be single track also.

That would get us high quality rail transit from Uptown to the rest of the system, and we could slowly build east and funds become available.

This could also integrate with SWLRT as a spur to make for some interesting interlining ideas, such as Uptown to Dinkytown via the Green Line or Eden Prairie to Uptown during events.

talindsay
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1533
Joined: September 29th, 2012, 10:41 am

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby talindsay » June 28th, 2014, 11:36 am

I don't think "high quality" describes a single track one vehicle spur from west lake to Lyndale. Sure it would be cheap but it wouldn't serve much need very well. Like most prime rail corridors, the strength of this corridor is all the connections it can allow within the corridor - its ability to get people from uptown or lynlake to downtown is very secondary since the buses already do that well.

ECtransplant
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 711
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:56 am

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby ECtransplant » June 29th, 2014, 2:56 am

How well they do it depends what your standards are

Wedgeguy
Capella Tower
Posts: 3404
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 6:59 am

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby Wedgeguy » June 29th, 2014, 8:47 am

The problem with a single line is what do you do when you have to shut down the line to build that second track when it is needed. You need to close it as working area is very limited and for safety reasons I doubt you could have construction within 6-8' of an active line. Would only add extra cost down the road. So your so called saving up front will be more than wasted if you wait until later to add that second line.

MinnMonkey
Landmark Center
Posts: 216
Joined: July 6th, 2012, 11:31 am

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby MinnMonkey » June 29th, 2014, 9:51 am

The problem with a single line is what do you do when you have to shut down the line to build that second track when it is needed. You need to close it as working area is very limited and for safety reasons I doubt you could have construction within 6-8' of an active line. Would only add extra cost down the road. So your so called saving up front will be more than wasted if you wait until later to add that second line.
That makes sense. It just seems like if we were to take some of these projects in smaller chunks we could actually build the system out faster than we currently are.

talindsay
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1533
Joined: September 29th, 2012, 10:41 am

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby talindsay » June 29th, 2014, 11:40 am

I will agree with that sentiment, but I think "smaller chunks" in this context doesn't mean single-tracking, but rather being willing to build shorter segments and expand later. The challenge with this specific line is that to reach any kind of ridership its smallest initial segment i basically the green line to the blue line.

Where I'd like to see the approach you're describing is on the Green Line Extension (SWLRT), where there's no reason in the world why that can't just start incrementally extending the existing Green Line towards West Lake out of local funds without even talking to the feds. A single-station extension, without federal involvement, would be quite inexpensive; however far they get before the federal process is finished could be subtracted directly off the local match. This approach has plenty of precedent, but here the local governments are really against spending local money without a current federal match, which I think is a shame since the federal process really slows things down.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2424
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: Saint Paul

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby EOst » June 29th, 2014, 11:44 am

You could probably do a double-line from West Lake to Uptown without having to later shut it down to build eastward, but the real problem is that the amount of money we'd spend on it would still be more than is realistic without state or federal help. Look at how much trouble MTC has been having getting the funding for the aBRT lines, and those are only ~30 mil a piece.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7752
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby mattaudio » June 29th, 2014, 11:49 am

It can't all be as easy as getting funding for park and rides...

Wedgeguy
Capella Tower
Posts: 3404
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 6:59 am

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby Wedgeguy » June 30th, 2014, 7:50 am

I think a majority of the funds spent on BRT is the stations and PAR, and not the ROW. The Midtown the ROW is pretty much set, though there will be bridges that need to be replaced so there is ample ROW for all that needs to go thru at ground level, trails and tracks. Stations with elevators will bring the cost up once they are factored into the costs.

go4guy
Foshay Tower
Posts: 921
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 8:54 am

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby go4guy » July 31st, 2014, 10:58 am

Regarding a 1 track extension to West End, I think that would work perfectly, and would be all that is needed there. Princeton, New Jersey has a similar spur to get from the Princeton Junction stop on the Amtrak line into campus. Works like a dream. And the trip is short enough where only 1 car on 1 track is needed.

Southside
City Center
Posts: 49
Joined: September 19th, 2013, 12:06 pm

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby Southside » July 31st, 2014, 11:34 am

Regarding a 1 track extension to West End, I think that would work perfectly, and would be all that is needed there. Princeton, New Jersey has a similar spur to get from the Princeton Junction stop on the Amtrak line into campus. Works like a dream. And the trip is short enough where only 1 car on 1 track is needed.
I don't understand how this route would work? Wouldn't it be easier to have a branch line between the Penn Ave. Station and West End along the rail corridor on the north side of Cedar Lake.

Where do you propose running the single track line from West Lake?

acs
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1364
Joined: March 26th, 2014, 8:41 pm

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby acs » July 31st, 2014, 11:43 am

Regarding a 1 track extension to West End, I think that would work perfectly, and would be all that is needed there. Princeton, New Jersey has a similar spur to get from the Princeton Junction stop on the Amtrak line into campus. Works like a dream. And the trip is short enough where only 1 car on 1 track is needed.
I don't understand how this route would work? Wouldn't it be easier to have a branch line between the Penn Ave. Station and West End along the rail corridor on the north side of Cedar Lake.

Where do you propose running the single track line from West Lake?
Beat me to it. How would it get that far north through residential neighborhoods to West End? It makes far more sense to extend down to Excelsior and Grand or 50th and France from West Calhoun.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7752
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby mattaudio » July 31st, 2014, 11:48 am

The discussion regarding a line to West End would branch at Penn (via the BNSF Wayzata Subdivision), not at West Lake or points further west. It would be tough to interline Midtown and this branch unless the wyes were "thirded out" at Penn and West Lake stations, and the only transfer point would be 21st Street station (same platform transfers). Probably better as separate services.

Southside
City Center
Posts: 49
Joined: September 19th, 2013, 12:06 pm

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby Southside » July 31st, 2014, 11:57 am

Regarding a 1 track extension to West End, I think that would work perfectly, and would be all that is needed there. Princeton, New Jersey has a similar spur to get from the Princeton Junction stop on the Amtrak line into campus. Works like a dream. And the trip is short enough where only 1 car on 1 track is needed.
I don't understand how this route would work? Wouldn't it be easier to have a branch line between the Penn Ave. Station and West End along the rail corridor on the north side of Cedar Lake.

Where do you propose running the single track line from West Lake?
Beat me to it. How would it get that far north through residential neighborhoods to West End? It makes far more sense to extend down to Excelsior and Grand or 50th and France from West Calhoun.
Both are great ideas. I really like the idea of sending it down France Ave. It could go all the way to 494 and maybe head west to Highway 100. I do not remember where I saw it (posted somewhere on UrbanMSP), but I saw a map indicating the square between Fairview Southdale and Normandale Lakes is the region's third largest employment center.

VAStationDude
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 764
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:30 am

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby VAStationDude » July 31st, 2014, 12:01 pm

Could the BNSF Wayzata Subdivision branch be accomplished without elevated structures, pedestrian vertical circulation and bridge reconstruction at Cedar Lake Parkway and Highway 100? If so the extension should be a no-brainer.

acs
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1364
Joined: March 26th, 2014, 8:41 pm

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby acs » July 31st, 2014, 12:10 pm

Could the BNSF Wayzata Subdivision branch be accomplished without elevated structures, pedestrian vertical circulation and bridge reconstruction at Cedar Lake Parkway and Highway 100? If so the extension should be a no-brainer.
I think this is trying to accommodate too much into one corridor. How about this: I-394 BRT can serve West End, Keep the midtown streetcar in the greenway, extend the lake street aBRT out to Excelsior & Grand, and extend the Hennepin ave aBRT down France to American blvd. from w. Calhoun. You hit all the major density nodes in the southwest and get crazy frequency between west Calhoun and uptown.

Southside
City Center
Posts: 49
Joined: September 19th, 2013, 12:06 pm

Re: Midtown Corridor

Postby Southside » July 31st, 2014, 1:11 pm

Could the BNSF Wayzata Subdivision branch be accomplished without elevated structures, pedestrian vertical circulation and bridge reconstruction at Cedar Lake Parkway and Highway 100? If so the extension should be a no-brainer.
I think this is trying to accommodate too much into one corridor. How about this: I-394 BRT can serve West End, Keep the midtown streetcar in the greenway, extend the lake street aBRT out to Excelsior & Grand, and extend the Hennepin ave aBRT down France to American blvd. from w. Calhoun. You hit all the major density nodes in the southwest and get crazy frequency between west Calhoun and uptown.
Brilliant!!! That's the best idea I've heard in ages.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 55 guests