B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

[ECtransplant]

Except when surrounded by lakes and parkland

[MNdible]

I see what you did there.

[Wedgeguy]

You might have an issue with the new substation on the east side of Hiawatha, in what would be 28th street ROW. You'd have to tunnel around and past that before you could go above grade again.

[froggie]

Although if we thought it would, I liked the proposal (by Froggie was it?) of building the proposed Midtown terminus below grade to facilitate future tunneling east to 27th Ave or so where it could then emerge in a portal above ground.

That was my idea - it's credited to Froggie every time it comes up though, so I've made peace with that I just want to keep the idea in circulation for self-serving purposes since such a system is the only way I'll have rail near enough to my house that I don't need a bus transfer to get to work...

As I recall, we both had the same idea independent of each other. I probably get credited because I mapped it out on my website.

[talindsay]

Although if we thought it would, I liked the proposal (by Froggie was it?) of building the proposed Midtown terminus below grade to facilitate future tunneling east to 27th Ave or so where it could then emerge in a portal above ground.

That was my idea - it's credited to Froggie every time it comes up though, so I've made peace with that I just want to keep the idea in circulation for self-serving purposes since such a system is the only way I'll have rail near enough to my house that I don't need a bus transfer to get to work...

As I recall, we both had the same idea independent of each other. I probably get credited because I mapped it out on my website.

You're probably right, and you've certainly done more to sell it anyway I just want to see it built!

[twincitizen]

I know we're all focused on fantasy maps and interlining and such, but we all need to take a step back and realize that this line (the Greenway rail one) is nowhere near a slam dunk. This line has no political support at the City, and more importantly at Hennepin County. You'll have to go back several pages to see where I first brought it up, but right now Mike Opat (and by extension, Hennepin County) is standing firmly in the path of this plan even being adopted into the Met Council's regional transitway corridors. Since Hennepin County owns the land, this project cannot proceed without their support. At the City of Minneapolis, political leaders (and transit advocates) are far too preoccupied with the Nicollet streetcar project to give this line a minute of their time. We transit advocates are going to have to do some heavy lifting before rail in the greenway is even accepted by our elected officials. I think that conversation begins with Lisa Bender, Alondra Cano, and Peter McLaughlin. All 3 will have to be strong supporters before this line picks up any momentum at all. Right now, this is very far from a sure thing. Unless we can somehow get the County Board to override Mike Opat (the board chair), this thing isn't going anywhere until funding is secured for Bottineau and that is still many, many years away. As it stands today, this line doesn't have a chance in hell of moving forward.

The chances of getting acceptance of Midtown attached as a "rider" to Minneapolis' municipal consent of Southwest are approximately nil, because as I said, this line simply has no political traction. If Minneapolis were to ask for anything out of the Met Council for accepting the Southwest project, it would be the Nicollet streetcar, not this.

It's too bad, because this line should really be developed in conjunction with Southwest, since it would supplement the ridership of that line. Nicollet Streetcar will do little to nothing to complement ridership on Southwest.

But hey, at least we'll (maybe) have Arterial BRT on Lake Street by the time Southwest opens in late 2019.

[mattaudio]

Is this too urban of an area for Hennepin County to push for rail transit?

[ECtransplant]

It would go by a lot of lakes and parks too though, so maybe it fits within their vision of rail transit

[woofner]

You think they're going to avoid scheduling the addition to the TPP on Met Council Transportation Committee agendas? Why would they do that, except cynically as a bargaining chip with Minneapolis? How would Mike Opat be able to prevent this? Do you think these people are opposed to Midtown, rather than opposed to building it before Bottineau?

[twincitizen]

That's the thing I don't understand...it's unlikely this would move ahead of Bottineau anyways, I don't know why Mike Opat is having a coronary over it. As much as it may seem like Midtown would be an easy build because of the existing grade separation, there are years of studies ahead, including impacts to the historical bridges, etc.

As to your last question, yes I do think some people are opposed to Midtown itself, including Mike Opat. The line won't go forward without the support of the Hennepin County board and CTIB. Can Peter McLaughlin whip the votes around opposition of Mike Opat? Or on CTIB, around all of the suburban members that want Gateway, Rush Line, etc. prioritized?

We're going to need the new Hennepin County District 3 commissioner to put this line on their back, along with the Minneapolis City Council, if it is going to move forward. Even McLaughlin himself is so committed to this regional vision of transit, he probably thinks Midtown shouldn't jump ahead of anything that's already on the CTIB queue.

[mattaudio]

We need more than just one new HC commish in Mpls

[exiled_antipodean]

impacts to the historical bridges, etc.

I've seen a lot of old bridges in Midtown. What makes them worth saving? None of them appear particularly aesthetically distinctive. Indeed, a lot of them look very similar.

[FISHMANPET]

The bridges and the right away are considered historic (are they landmarks or just resources?) so they can't just be torn down willy nilly.

[mattaudio]

If I understand correctly, the historic designation of the "grade separation" was basically to ensure it remained, since there was once a time when it would have been more cost effective from an infrastructure point for the railroad or the city to bring in fill and remove the bridges. Clearly the grade separation is a winner, and with the Greenway it is here to stay. At this point, the historical designation is just getting in the way... including leveraging Greenway-adjacent developments to provide vertical circulation, etc. I'd like to see the historic designation removed.

[illman00]

Wouldn't some of the developers that are building all along the greenway be able to throw some weight around to push this project along?

[twincitizen]

Final AA report here: https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... ow-res.pdf

As any Midtown rail option is at least a decade away (let's be honest here...it's not going to open before Bottineau), I really hope we see some action on Lake Street aBRT soon. Right now the "D" Line and "E" Line are looking like Lake Street and Chicago-Fremont (aka Route 5), though not in that order. I don't expect anything to jump ahead of either.

A-Line (Snelling): 2015
B-Line (West 7th): 2016
C-Line (Penn Ave N): 2017
D&E would open in 2018 or later. With proper funding to get the planning process underway, it would be nice to see two of these corridors open per year, once the A-line is a smashing success.

[mattaudio]

A few years ago I had this idea for the Midtown Corridor extending service to downtown. I can't find the map now, and I don't think it would make sense to Wye it northeast of West Lake, but it could easily stop at West Lake, and the driver can walk through the train to the other end (not sure how fast that process takes). But anyways, it would then run express to Downtown, providing a one-seat train ride during peak hours, without adding new tracks, from the Greenway corridor to Downtown.

The only problem is that the existing 5th Street ROW downtown will be crushed with just two services, so adding a third is probably a non-starter at this point. And hopefully we get fast Hennepin and Nicollet aBRT sooner than we get Midtown Streetcar.

[EOst]

I'd been wondering about this too, though I wonder if Uptown -> Midtown Greenway -> East Lake -> Downtown would take too long to be competitive. Even if you're optimistic and say the portion along the Greenway could be done in 15 minutes, it's another 15 or so from Lake to downtown on the Hiawatha line. That's barely competitive with normal city buses, much less with the aBRT we'll hopefully have by then.

It'd probably be a lot faster from Uptown if the Midtown line (whatever color it ends up on) used the SWLRT track to get to downtown; I can't imagine it'd be more than 15min from West Lake to Target Field, so a Midtown train could probably do Uptown -> Downtown in 20 minutes or so. That'd make it probably a two-seat trip for everyone east of 35W or so (since it'd probably be faster to take Midtown -> Blue), but they'll also have the Orange by then, hopefully. Or you could do a loop, where Midtown trains ran on Midtown, SWLRT, and Hiawatha lines, but that might be more train than this corridor needs.

[David Greene]

\The only problem is that the existing 5th Street ROW downtown will be crushed with just two services, so adding a third is probably a non-starter at this point.

Yep. 5th St. is saturated. I doubt it could even make it into Target Field Station with the Blue and Green lines. I think it could be quite interesting to have this run north on Van White over the to-be-built bridge span with a stop at Glenwood and then have it follow the Blue line north to Brooklyn Park.

Or do a modification of mattaudio's idea and have it follow the Green line through Kenilworth and then the BNSF mainline to West End. It seems like following the Blue line would be cheaper.

[mattaudio]

I really do think connecting West End to Penn Ave station is worthwhile, but I don't think the service interlining with Midtown (via Kenilworth) would make much sense - it wouldn't provide downtown connectivity for the Midtown Corridor *or* West End branch riders.