B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

[twincitizen]

I think this is trying to accommodate too much into one corridor. How about this: I-394 BRT can serve West End, Keep the midtown streetcar in the greenway, extend the lake street aBRT out to Excelsior & Grand, and extend the Hennepin ave aBRT down France to American blvd. from w. Calhoun. You hit all the major density nodes in the southwest and get crazy frequency between west Calhoun and uptown.

Brilliant. Nailed it.

The only one I would modify is to divide the last one into two services. Hennepin aBRT should cover the Xerxes branch of the 6 to a Southdale terminus (connecting with lots of suburban local routes). On France, I'd recommend a limited stop route between West Lake Station and American Blvd. The shorter route (not to mention staying out of uptown & downtown) would provide greater reliability for those transferring to Southwest LRT into downtown. I'm not sure local service is needed on France if you keep the existing local 6 on Xerxes and that weird-ass branch on Wooddale.

[go4guy]

Regarding a 1 track extension to West End, I think that would work perfectly, and would be all that is needed there. Princeton, New Jersey has a similar spur to get from the Princeton Junction stop on the Amtrak line into campus. Works like a dream. And the trip is short enough where only 1 car on 1 track is needed.

I don't understand how this route would work? Wouldn't it be easier to have a branch line between the Penn Ave. Station and West End along the rail corridor on the north side of Cedar Lake.

Where do you propose running the single track line from West Lake?

Beat me to it. How would it get that far north through residential neighborhoods to West End? It makes far more sense to extend down to Excelsior and Grand or 50th and France from West Calhoun.

Sorry, I guess I posted this in the wrong thread. This spur would best be an extension of SWLRT following Cedar Lake Trail.

[David Greene]

I think this is trying to accommodate too much into one corridor. How about this: I-394 BRT can serve West End, Keep the midtown streetcar in the greenway, extend the lake street aBRT out to Excelsior & Grand, and extend the Hennepin ave aBRT down France to American blvd. from w. Calhoun. You hit all the major density nodes in the southwest and get crazy frequency between west Calhoun and uptown.

Brilliant. Nailed it.

The only one I would modify is to divide the last one into two services. Hennepin aBRT should cover the Xerxes branch of the 6 to a Southdale terminus (connecting with lots of suburban local routes). On France, I'd recommend a limited stop route between West Lake Station and American Blvd. The shorter route (not to mention staying out of uptown & downtown) would provide greater reliability for those transferring to Southwest LRT into downtown. I'm not sure local service is needed on France if you keep the existing local 6 on Xerxes and that weird-ass branch on Wooddale.

I like this plan. Buy why aBRT out to Excelsior & Grand rather than Midtown LRT? The LRT tracks will already be there. Sure, it's a bit of a walk from the Beltline station but the area around E&G could probably use a circulator anyway.

[Elliot Altbaum]

I've seen a lot of suggestions to interline the Midtown line from Lake to 46th st before heading east in Ford Parkway as a way to get to DT St. Paul. Wouldn't it make more sense to have it cross the river near Lake street and have it interline with the Green line?
What am I missing?

[mattaudio]

I've seen a lot of suggestions to interline the Midtown line from Lake to 46th st before heading east in Ford Parkway as a way to get to DT St. Paul. Wouldn't it make more sense to have it cross the river near Lake street and have it interline with the Green line?
What am I missing?

Yes, it would also make sense to interline with the Midtown line, assuming demand to build that track.

I think the discussion about a Greenway > Hiawatha > Riverview service is that it could be one service without any additional trackage. We're already discussing building LRT-lite in the Greenway and LRT/LRT-lite in Riverview.

[Tcmetro]

I think the best option is really to have the Midtown line continue along Lake (either in mixed traffic or dedicated lanes) to either the University/Snelling stop or along Grand into downtown St. Paul. Metro Transit is seriously considering one-car trains on the Midtown line, so they will be quite compatible with mixed traffic operations.

The idea of running the Midtown line to St. Paul via Highland Park and the Riverview Corridor is also intriguing. It serves the crosstown role of the Midtown line, connects Uptown with Highland Park, and provides the local service role in the W 7th area. For South Mpls to Inner St. Paul trips (i.e. buses 21 and 53) it's not really a good replacement.

[Elliot Altbaum]

I think the discussion about a Greenway > Hiawatha > Riverview service is that it could be one service without any additional trackage. We're already discussing building LRT-lite in the Greenway and LRT/LRT-lite in Riverview.

I guess it makes sense from the perspective of not needing new track. Though it seems strange to go 20 blocks S before heading 20 blocks N again to reach DT ST.P. Would it be faster than the 21 to DT ST. Paul? I guess it depends on what one is trying to connect.

I think the best option is really to have the Midtown line continue along Lake (either in mixed traffic or dedicated lanes) to either the University/Snelling stop or along Grand into downtown St. Paul. Metro Transit is seriously considering one-car trains on the Midtown line, so they will be quite compatible with mixed traffic operations.

Having another E/W spine seems good especially since it would hit St. Thomas and Mac.

[nate]

Agree, but the thought of the Ramsey Hill neighborhood allowing surface-running LRT is...farfetched.

There is probably already a "Neighbors for Responsible Transit Infrastructure Development" group forming there, in response to this speculative message board thread.

[mattaudio]

I guess it makes sense from the perspective of not needing new track. Though it seems strange to go 20 blocks S before heading 20 blocks N again to reach DT ST.P. Would it be faster than the 21 to DT ST. Paul? I guess it depends on what one is trying to connect.

True, and I definitely like the idea of better transit connecting the Grand corridor and St. Thomas. But if we're building Greenway and Riverview LRTs, and are talking about how to get the best service out of that infrastructure, Greenway > Hiawatha > Riverview seems like a decent service idea (to compliment Hiawatha > Riverview between MOA/Airport and St. Paul).

The 53 takes an hour to get from Uptown to St. Paul during rush hours, and I bet a Greenway > Riverview service would be about the same running time, or possibly less. This service could replace the 53 while expanding the speed advantage beyond peak times. It would leave some St. Paul commuters on East Lake hanging, but it would pick up other St. Paul commuters in South Mpls.

[David Greene]

Another option would be E. Lake, Marshall, Short Line to Union Depot, though it probably doesn't hit the ridership of the other options.

[twincitizen]

Guys, what about this idea:

Rail in the Greenway between West Lake (Green) and Midtown Lake (Blue) and then a limited-stop bus on Lake Street to connect points further. I bet we could operate that short stretch of rail with just a few LRVs/operators, using rolling stock we already have and we wouldn't have to over-think things at all!

[David Greene]

Don't know if you're being facetious, but that's basically the official plan, except the bus line runs the whole length of Lake.

[talindsay]

Don't get me wrong, a service plan that links the Riverview and the Greenway via a short stretch of the Blue Line is a fine idea. But given the substantial population along the corridor currently served by the 21 (and, in full disclosure, that includes me) I think the zig-zaggy service this would produce is definitely only a backup to the more reasonable plan of the Greenway line extending across the river on Lake Street into Saint Paul and connecting the substantial residential populations and commercial and academic nodes in that corridor into the existing core network. A service running from SW's West Lake station through Blue's Midtown station to Green's Fairview or Snelling station remains my preference, but I could also see a service running along Marshall all the way to Ayd Mill before following that into downtown StP. Either would do a lot more to connect the urban fabric while also providing a faster ride for Uptown residents trying to get to DT StP.

[mattaudio]

Sorry, but is there an actual plan for transit on the greenway to go east of Hiawatha or cross the river? The current Midtown Corridor plan, with a stub terminal at grade at Hi-Lake, does not take into consideration future extension of the Greenway LRT in any direction. Right now folks will be looking at the 53, or Lake aBRT transferring to the Green Line.

[talindsay]

No, of course not - the currently "planned" service stops at Midtown. I've lobbied my councilmember, and the general idea of extending it eastward is on the radar but not likely any time soon. Still, I would hope that when MT finally starts thinking about linking Uptown with St. Paul they'll consider the universe of options as is the norm. Riverview, of course, is certainly not especially likely to happen at this point, but it's a logical connection so we'll see. Considering that the current green/blue junction was built as a one-way junction instead of a wye, even where there's a fair amount of space to work with, I don't know that Riverview is likely to be planned that way either unless people speak up.

I guess what I'm saying is that all the ideas being floated are "counterfactual" in as much as no current plans provide for any of them. The Midtown line is being envisioned to terminate at grade underneath the Blue Line, not to link to it. Riverview is being imagined as connecting the airport with DT St. Paul. Southeast Minneapolis and western St. Paul continue to be largely ignored (not unreasonably at this stage, given our population density). All the ideas being discussed are explicitly not part of the politicos' debate right now. But we can change that by talking to our politicians. I, for one, have started to do that.

[David Greene]

I'm taking my own advice from the Bottineau thread in my conversation with Woofner and FISHMANPET.

Who wants to organize something to make this line happen? I mean, I *really* want this to happen, both the rail and the enhanced bus. But the city needs to be pushed to make it a priority.

This would be a multi-year effort, five years minimum just to get things to the point of having a real project. It would involve meeting with city, county and state public officials, getting on various boards and commissions, potentially meeting with FTA, EPA and other federal agencies, getting connected to community organizations and on and on and on. We need to understand the power relationships and the self-interests of the decision-makers. Plenty of work to do for everyone on this board.

I have some experience in this kind of effort but I'm hardly an expert. But together with other interested organizations we can figure it out. Potential partner organizations include neighborhood groups, local churches, business associations, MGC, TLC, Sierra Club, faith-based organizaions, Minneapolis chamber, Bike Walk Twin Cities and many others I can't even think of right now.

I guess we would start by meeting and figuring out how to start.

Who's in?

[Tcmetro]

I'd hope that the new Met Council chair would be interested in getting this off the ground. Certainly that would be the first place to lobby.

If a transit tax increase can be mustered out in the near future, it should be let known that such a line is an imperative addition to the network.

I'd love to help out too, but I live in Chicago now.

[grant1simons2]

We're an urbanist site after all, we should have our own little real orginization

[Silophant]

I'll help, though I must warn you that I'm a filthy transient renter and don't really care about my community.

[acs]

Yeah why shouldn't we start a lobbying group? Groups like ISIAH and TLC aren't government created organizations like neighborhoods are but they still have a good deal of sway. The question is, do we go grassroots movement or with politics the way things are just form a PAC and get someone on our payroll elected?