B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
DanPatchToget
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 739
Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm

Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby DanPatchToget » April 25th, 2020, 4:50 pm

alexschief wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 2:18 pm
I'm sorry, but the notion that the sloped wall on the south side of the Midtown trench is somehow sacrosanct makes a parody of historic preservation.

Just because something is old does not give it intrinsic veto power over any subsequent improvement.
This is like the supposed "railroad historic district" that the feds required the Met Council to study the impacts from Southwest LRT construction. This "railroad historic district" consists of gravel pits, a freeway viaduct, and a crumbling retaining wall*.

*The retaining wall supported a railroad trestle, and if the trestle were still there then I could see the merit of studying impacts to that, but it was torn down decades ago.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2340
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby EOst » April 25th, 2020, 5:47 pm

The abundant green of the Midtown Greenway trench isn't an incidental quality, it's key to the success of the trail as a recreational amenity and intimately connected to its appeal as a commuting option. You can see that in the very different use that a trail like the Hiawatha trail.

Sometimes there are comments here that seem to think people are actually routing algorithms whose only goal is optimizing travel times to the greatest possible degree. We aren't, and we don't think that way.

talindsay
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1509
Joined: September 29th, 2012, 10:41 am

Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby talindsay » April 26th, 2020, 8:08 am

I mean, it's kind of absurd to contrast the Greenway with the Hiawatha Trail and come to the conclusion that it's the grass that makes the Greenway more popular. It may be a factor, but let me list a few other possible factors:
* The Greenway is wider than Hiawatha
* The Greenway has a consistent asphalt path for its entire length, while the Hiawatha trail meanders and changes surface
* The Hiawatha Trail actually looks like a sidewalk along various stretches, while the Greenway looks like a road
* The Greenway is grade-separated, while Hiawatha is not
* The Hiawatha Trail has busy street crossings at some regularity, which are tied in with railroad-style LRT operations, while the Greenway does not
* The Hiawatha Trail has very low density along most of its length, while the Greenway has high density along most of its length
* The Hiawatha Trail has a somewhat difficult entry path into the only dense area along its length (downtown) while the Greenway cuts right through the center of its high density neighborhoods
* The Greenway has grass, sloping walls along some of its southern exposure, while the Hiawatha Trail does not.

I don't know that one could genuinely argue that the final point is the one that drives use.

tmart
Union Depot
Posts: 364
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 10:05 am
Location: Expat

Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby tmart » April 26th, 2020, 10:01 am

EOst wrote:
April 25th, 2020, 5:47 pm
The abundant green of the Midtown Greenway trench isn't an incidental quality, it's key to the success of the trail as a recreational amenity and intimately connected to its appeal as a commuting option. You can see that in the very different use that a trail like the Hiawatha trail.

Sometimes there are comments here that seem to think people are actually routing algorithms whose only goal is optimizing travel times to the greatest possible degree. We aren't, and we don't think that way.
It's not that at all; I just don't think that modifications to the walls are inherently incompatible with that appeal. Here's a spot where climbing/hanging plants help maintain that sense of greenery even with a retaining wall. Here's a segment where the walls are vertical but there's still a buffer of wild greenery.

It's not like there are two options, one being zero changes and the other being a concrete ditch à la the Los Angeles River. It's also not likely that there would be any reason to remove all the sloped walls, or shrubs, or whatever other feature--the corridor varies in width and any changes would probably be focused on chokepoints. In fact, it's really the bridges that I worry about as a more likely sticking point than the walls.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1823
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby amiller92 » April 27th, 2020, 9:34 am

What talindsay and tmart said, but also, the "green" part of the Greenway is most definitely not historic. It should definitely be a key part of any future design, but I don't understand insisting on keeping any single particular feature.


Return to “Transportation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BigIdeasGuy and 2 guests