Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2625
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby RailBaronYarr » December 11th, 2017, 2:05 pm

Well, the project area as defined in statute doesn't include much of the starter line that would extend down to Lake St, so you could obviously build a line that extended beyond Nicollet Mall onto other streets, but just not pay for it with this special taxing district. So something that went up Washington/Broadway but then continued south on Nicollet could still be paid for in the same way the starter Nicollet line was intended, and long-term a Nic-Central line could still be built and a W Broadway-Washington streetcar could be directed to continue to the U (if this was deemed a good idea).

But my question still stands: is there something preventing the city from using their regular assessment + levy process to build transit stations, lay tracks/wires, buy rolling stock, and operate maintenance facilities?

User avatar
VacantLuxuries
Foshay Tower
Posts: 973
Joined: February 20th, 2015, 12:38 pm

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby VacantLuxuries » December 11th, 2017, 3:53 pm

But my question still stands: is there something preventing the city from using their regular assessment + levy process to build transit stations, lay tracks/wires, buy rolling stock, and operate maintenance facilities?
I believe it's that we're still under the impression that this project could get federal matching funds and therefore would need to be applied for by the Met Council.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4617
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby David Greene » December 11th, 2017, 3:58 pm

As far as the corridor goes, I can see the arguments against this particular project, but it's still pretty staggering to me that there's now zero rail service, existing or planned, serving Southwest, Central, Uptown, or Northeast. A north-south corridor seems like the biggest no-brainer in the state to me, at least in terms of potential if not logistics.
Just pointing out that aBRT plans exist for both Hennepin and Lake St., both of which serve Uptown. And don't forget the Midtown LRT. There's an official study and everything. Dunno if that falls under your definition of "planned," though. I could argue it either way.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2625
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby RailBaronYarr » December 11th, 2017, 4:01 pm

^...But that would have been the case if the city used the special taxing streetcar TIF district of 8 parcels to fund its share, right? The city would have committed a certain amount of dedicated revenues, then worked with the Met Council to find other local dollars to then apply for federal matching funds.

I'm asking about the necessity to use a special TIF district enabled by legislature with very strict requirements rather than a more permissive method. Is it simply because the city didn't feel like the political challenge *increasing* the taxes of neighboring properties compared to the easier route of diverting *new* taxes (thanks to redevelopment or value increase) via TIF?

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4617
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby David Greene » December 11th, 2017, 4:02 pm

Agreed. I think a Broadway/North Loop streetcar should be a much lower priority, especially since North is about to get two significantly more useful ABRT lines.
That might make sense from a purely utilitarian viewpoint, but for an equity-minded city council, it's terrible politics.

Even with the aBRT lines, there's still a gap along the Northside's most important commercial corridor, particularly when one considers connections to the larger network and regional destinations. I don't see why, say, the Midtown LRT should be prioritized over W. Broadway, whether streetcar or something else. We need both and we shouldn't have to choose.

tmart
Rice Park
Posts: 488
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 10:05 am
Location: Expat

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby tmart » December 11th, 2017, 4:29 pm

As far as the corridor goes, I can see the arguments against this particular project, but it's still pretty staggering to me that there's now zero rail service, existing or planned, serving Southwest, Central, Uptown, or Northeast. A north-south corridor seems like the biggest no-brainer in the state to me, at least in terms of potential if not logistics.
Just pointing out that aBRT plans exist for both Hennepin and Lake St., both of which serve Uptown. And don't forget the Midtown LRT. There's an official study and everything. Dunno if that falls under your definition of "planned," though. I could argue it either way.
aBRT fits under my definition of "planned" but not under my definition of "rail." :D

Midtown is a great project, and perhaps unusually likely to actually get built, but not it's not the north-south use case I was talking about. I'm saying it's weird that nobody seems to be making the case for a high-capacity permanent guideway connecting these neighborhoods to downtown (and to each other), and circulating north-to-south within Downtown.

SamtheBusNerd
City Center
Posts: 42
Joined: August 20th, 2015, 10:54 am

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby SamtheBusNerd » December 11th, 2017, 6:21 pm

That might make sense from a purely utilitarian viewpoint, but for an equity-minded city council, it's terrible politics.

Even with the aBRT lines, there's still a gap along the Northside's most important commercial corridor, particularly when one considers connections to the larger network and regional destinations. I don't see why, say, the Midtown LRT should be prioritized over W. Broadway, whether streetcar or something else. We need both and we shouldn't have to choose.
I'd have to disagree. We do realistically have to prioritize right now since we don't have the funding to support all these projects at the same time. LA/Denver levels of funding would be great but aren't likely anytime soon.

Both ABRT routes cross Broadway, would serve more Northsiders, and connect to many of the same major destinations as the #14/streetcar. The #18 serves thousands more riders, most of whom are also low-income, transit dependent, P.O.C. From a regional connections perspective I could see the argument for a better/more frequent #32 on Lowry but a streetcar on Broadway wouldn't actually be an improvement in mobility any more than running the #14 as a frequent bus. And the development argument is problematic whether you believe a streetcar works as a development tool or not.

I think there's an idea that any investment in North is automatically more equitable than an investment in South. I don't think that always holds up. There's large high density areas of low-income folks and P.O.C. in South who also have bad transit service (but actually use it more) who are recieving a lot less focus at the moment but need investments just as badly.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4617
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby David Greene » December 11th, 2017, 10:14 pm

That might make sense from a purely utilitarian viewpoint, but for an equity-minded city council, it's terrible politics.

Even with the aBRT lines, there's still a gap along the Northside's most important commercial corridor, particularly when one considers connections to the larger network and regional destinations. I don't see why, say, the Midtown LRT should be prioritized over W. Broadway, whether streetcar or something else. We need both and we shouldn't have to choose.
I'd have to disagree. We do realistically have to prioritize right now since we don't have the funding to support all these projects at the same time. LA/Denver levels of funding would be great but aren't likely anytime soon.
We don't have the funding? Why not? We just doubled our transit sales tax! All of our existing rail projects approved by the feds got that approval with a transit funding stream significantly less than what it is now. Where is that extra money going? AFAIK neither Bottineau nor Southwest have had significant budget increases since the sales tax increase.

I think we have the fuding. What we lack is the political will.
Both ABRT routes cross Broadway, would serve more Northsiders, and connect to many of the same major destinations as the #14/streetcar. The #18 serves thousands more riders, most of whom are also low-income, transit dependent, P.O.C. From a regional connections perspective I could see the argument for a better/more frequent #32 on Lowry but a streetcar on Broadway wouldn't actually be an improvement in mobility any more than running the #14 as a frequent bus. And the development argument is problematic whether you believe a streetcar works as a development tool or not.
I suppose that's true, especially with a much improved (aBRT-level) #14. Unfortunately, no one is talking about that. Not many are talking about rail either but at least it has some visibility. I'm defintiely open to options. Something should be done along W. Broadway.
I think there's an idea that any investment in North is automatically more equitable than an investment in South. I don't think that always holds up. There's large high density areas of low-income folks and P.O.C. in South who also have bad transit service (but actually use it more) who are recieving a lot less focus at the moment but need investments just as badly.
I agree. When I talk to people about Midtown I point out all of the equity arguments for it, and there are a lot! That's why we shouldn't have to choose.

The Heights
Block E
Posts: 4
Joined: December 9th, 2017, 10:54 pm
Location: Columbia Heights

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby The Heights » December 16th, 2017, 9:33 am

Hopefully Central and Nicollet will be on deck for aBRT now that the alternative mode is dead. Selfishly, as a Columbia Heights resident it always annoyed me that a short streetcar route was blocking improved transit on the rest of the corridor.

Central had the highest score after excluding routes built/in process (and Lake, which hopefully will be some form of rail), and Nicollet was third.

I know these were studied as separate corridors, but since together they make a strong north/south spine, I wonder if there would be any merit to operating them as a single route. Seems like it wouldn't add costs since they both end on the mall, and I'm sure there are users who would value a single seat ride through downtown.
Joe

DanPatchToget
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1645
Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby DanPatchToget » December 16th, 2017, 11:18 am

And what was their plan for the streetcar tracks crossing the Canadian Pacific tracks? Would be a huge pain to grade separate it. Certainly it can be done, but at what cost in terms of money and disruption? Too bad its not easy to just have the streetcar tracks cross the freight tracks at-grade as was done with the original streetcars.

tmart
Rice Park
Posts: 488
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 10:05 am
Location: Expat

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby tmart » February 17th, 2018, 7:10 pm

Streetcar plan moves forward, though mayor signals caution

Hmm, now it sounds like maybe this is less of a "project isn't happening" and more of a "Frey dislikes the project." The city's still studying it and the tax money's still coming in.

Interesting that Frey talks about it as a development tool and Bender talks about it as a transit improvement. I'm curious to see the final study and whether it actually would have meaningful transit impacts.

mamundsen
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1195
Joined: November 15th, 2012, 10:01 am

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby mamundsen » February 17th, 2018, 9:08 pm

I can't believe the just completed Nicollet project didn't lay down tracks. Really seems like we wasted money if this streetcar happens in the next 10 years.

Qhaberl
Foshay Tower
Posts: 855
Joined: February 25th, 2016, 9:51 am

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Qhaberl » February 18th, 2018, 1:41 pm

I think the fact that they didn't lay down tracks seals the faith that it's not going to happen in the next 10 years. When it comes time for them to actually seriously think about the project they are going to say, "Nicolette [sic] Avenue was just replaced, we be wasting taxpayers money if we wrapped it up now." I totally agree with you @mamundsen it's a darn shame that they didn't lay the streetcar tracks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

alexschief
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1140
Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby alexschief » February 18th, 2018, 2:46 pm

Make this an aBRT project and it can start preliminary engineering today, will cost $200 million less, and will serve a lot more territory a lot better.

User avatar
Tiller
Foshay Tower
Posts: 964
Joined: January 17th, 2015, 11:58 am

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Tiller » February 18th, 2018, 2:52 pm

There's $10m in the fund for it today and it's expected to stand at $17m by the end of 2018. We still have at least 24 years before we'd hit the funding mark for the streetcar (assuming an average of $10m value captured per year) to change our minds (or maybe like 10 if they decide to use bonds). 5-6 years from now we could pay for the aBRT alternative with cash if the legislature would green light it.

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5989
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby MNdible » February 19th, 2018, 10:01 am

They could issue bonds tomorrow. There's pretty easy math for how much you can bond, given a set source of funding. And of course, the funding should increase with property value inflation.

I think it's the uncertainty of the federal funding sources that's holding things back now.

User avatar
VacantLuxuries
Foshay Tower
Posts: 973
Joined: February 20th, 2015, 12:38 pm

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby VacantLuxuries » February 19th, 2018, 10:29 am

I think it's the uncertainty of the federal funding sources that's holding things back now.
I wish we'd just start planning projects assuming zero federal funding. Rip the band-aid off before it's ripped off for us.

Add more properties along Central and Nicollet to the tax district. Create a new one along Washington and Broadway and start raising funds for that streetcar too. Assume that any investment we want to make in the city, we will have to go it alone for the foreseeable future. Not only will that mean we don't go through a dark age where we watch the money we were expecting for transit projects go to building freeway interchanges in Wyoming, but it means if/when sanity returns to the federal level, we can treat the extra funding as a boost instead of a crutch.

SurlyLHT
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1262
Joined: February 21st, 2017, 3:50 pm

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby SurlyLHT » February 19th, 2018, 11:04 am

I think it's the uncertainty of the federal funding sources that's holding things back now.
I wish we'd just start planning projects assuming zero federal funding. Rip the band-aid off before it's ripped off for us.

Add more properties along Central and Nicollet to the tax district. Create a new one along Washington and Broadway and start raising funds for that streetcar too. Assume that any investment we want to make in the city, we will have to go it alone for the foreseeable future. Not only will that mean we don't go through a dark age where we watch the money we were expecting for transit projects go to building freeway interchanges in Wyoming, but it means if/when sanity returns to the federal level, we can treat the extra funding as a boost instead of a crutch.
I agree with regards to funding. Personally, I think they should watch the implementation of aBRT around the cities and use best practices to implement a line. Perhaps create something a little more special than current BRT. For the city to grow we need to be getting more people through pre-existing right-a-ways and don't see a better way to do this than BRT.

nordeast homer
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 717
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 11:11 am

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby nordeast homer » February 19th, 2018, 12:50 pm

I think the fact that they didn't lay down tracks seals the faith that it's not going to happen in the next 10 years. When it comes time for them to actually seriously think about the project they are going to say, "Nicolette [sic] [sic] [sic] Avenue was just replaced, we be wasting taxpayers money if we wrapped it up now." I totally agree with you @mamundsen it's a darn shame that they didn't lay the streetcar tracks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Isn't the "beauty" of a streetcar system that you don't have to do as much prep for laying rails. The cars are much lighter than LRT and there should not be the need to move any underground utilities. They should be able to do the line in considerably less time than an LRT line with less disruption to the rest of the road.

tmart
Rice Park
Posts: 488
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 10:05 am
Location: Expat

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby tmart » February 19th, 2018, 1:29 pm

I think the fact that they didn't lay down tracks seals the faith that it's not going to happen in the next 10 years. When it comes time for them to actually seriously think about the project they are going to say, "Nicolette [sic] [sic] [sic] [sic] [sic] Avenue was just replaced, we be wasting taxpayers money if we wrapped it up now." I totally agree with you @mamundsen it's a darn shame that they didn't lay the streetcar tracks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Isn't the "beauty" of a streetcar system that you don't have to do as much prep for laying rails. The cars are much lighter than LRT and there should not be the need to move any underground utilities. They should be able to do the line in considerably less time than an LRT line with less disruption to the rest of the road.
Generally the stations are much smaller, too, which should mean less need to rebuild roads and reconfigure intersections.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 47 guests